Show notes
Mark Wellman is a nationally acclaimed author, filmmaker and motivational speaker. Despite being paralyzed in a mountain climbing accident, Mark has inspired millions to meet their problems head-on and reach for their full potential. A two-time Paralympian and former Yosemite Park Ranger, Mark's NO LIMITS philosophy encourages individuals to adventure into new horizons; to go beyond the seeming unreachable.Mark is used to being on the road since he travels throughout the year, bringing his adaptive climbing wall to companies, organizations, and schools. We caught him during one of his road trips and he agreed to swing by Golden, Colorado to the No Barriers podcast studio and catch up with his old friends, Jeff, Dave, and Erik.Mark is unbelievably accomplished but also reserved and humble. He talks about his legendary, groundbreaking athletic achievements with the same tone most use to describe what they had for lunch. But there was a time in Mark's life where he was unsure, depressed, and hopeless with no clear path ahead.Mark discusses his near-death injury that he sustained on a climb that left his paralyzed from the waist down. He spent months in the hospital unsure of how to go forward and lost. That was, until he received some wisdom.I had this one physical trainer, she was from Germany, and she said: “You need to train like your training for the Olympics!” And I just really took that to heart.”Mark first was determined to find employment where he could stay connected to the outdoors. So, he went back to school and got his degree in Park Management. He worked as a Park Ranger in various capacities, already shattering people's ideas of what he was capable of, but that was just the beginning. He soon discovered the world of adaptive sports and threw himself into learning more and designing his own adaptive equipment to get back out into the field.It was then he came up with the crazy idea of climbing the sheer granite face of El Capitan. He found a partner, built an ascending rope pulley system, and started to train. Now, folks of many different abilities have climbed El Cap, but until Mark, this was unthinkable. He pulled it off and became the first paraplegic to make the ascent.“Are you crazy to take this paraplegic guy up El Cap? Seems like a really stupid idea. Something could go wrong,’ but fortunately we didn’t really listen to that.”Mark went on to gain tons of media attention, made national and international news, met the President, lit the flaming torch up a 120-foot rope at the Paralympic games in Atlanta; a fun story he shared with us, and continued on to break even more records of athletic achievement, like being the first paraplegic to sit-ski unassisted across the Sierra Nevadas.Listening to Mark describe his epic achievements it's easy to forget he has a disability or about all the struggle that led him to this point in his life. But for Mark, it's about mindset.“I learned my disability wasn’t a death sentence - let’s get on with life, dude!”But Mark wanted to share what he learned with others. He details the spark of an idea he had with a friend that led to the formation of the nonprofit, No Barriers, and the humble beginnings of an organization that is now becoming a movement. He uses his time to speak to groups and offer inspiration, as well as lead hands-on adaptive activities that get people out of their comfort zones.“Let’s get out and enjoy life.”Read Mark's Autobiography HereVisit Mark's website: No LimitsLearn more about No Barriersautobiography Climbing Back.The first paraplegic to sit-ski unassisted across the Sierra Nevada Mountain Range,--------------- EPISODE TRANSCRIPT -------------------------Dave: Well welcome to our No Barriers podcast. We are thrilled today to have Mark Wellman with us, who's one of the founders of No Barriers. Can't wait to hear some of his stories about what this organization was founded upon. He's really the heart and soul behind why many of us are here at the organization.Before we get into that conversation, Erik, you just came back from a really interesting experience, why don't share with our listeners a little bit about it?Erik: [Dave: Wow.Erik: In a five by [Dave: When was this set?Erik: Recently. Literally just got out of ... he got out of jail, no apology from Alabama. But he wrote this amazing book, so ... And then a lady who wrote a book called Beauty Sick, mostly [Dave: That's a lot of No Barriers.Erik: ...authors right there. [Dave: That sounds like perfect fit for the kinds of topics we explore.Erik: Yeah. And I am totally thrilled... this is great. I'm so psyched to have my friend, all our friends, Mark Wellman on the podcast today.Dave: The legend.Erik: The legend, the dirt bag... is that okay to say?Mark: Yeah, yeah.Dave: You embrace it, right?Mark: It's great to be here. I embrace everything.Erik: Mark almost doesn't need an introduction, but Mark is [Mark: Yeah, it was.Erik: On the wall. Just, Mark, a hero of mine for sure. You're a few years older than me. When I was a teenager and you were just a little bit older climbing El Capitan and doing all these amazing adventures, you were a huge part of my motivation, so I'm psyched right now.Mark: It's great to be here, thanks a lot Erik. Yeah I guess I could [It was sort of technical, kind of a mixed route. There was a little bit of ice, a little bit of rock, and made [I'll be the first to kind of admit my guard was down. My partner said, "Hey, maybe we should put a rope on [Erik: And 35 years ago.Dave: Delicious. [crosstalk Mark: So next thing I knew, I slipped on some scree, and I pitched forward and I started rolling. I made a couple of somersaults and I rolled off about a 100 foot cliff. When I landed I broke my lower back at T 11, T 12. Of course at the time I didn't know it. [Jeff: What's your recollection of that period of time...Mark: He said he was with me for two hours, it felt like ten minutes.Erik: Right.Mark: And then he left. [Erik: You almost froze to death.Mark: It was cold that night. Yeah it was real cold. I was laying on some ice. That probably helped because it kept the swelling down in my back. So I'm an incomplete [About an hour later, a second helicopter came up and this time was from Lemoore Navy Base, and they did [Dave: [Erik: Including rehab?Mark: Including rehab and the whole nine yards. And nowadays, a paraplegic if you go to Craig Hospital, it's kind of the factory up here in the west. A paraplegic will be in the hospital for about six weeks. It's pretty dramatic... in those days, it was a much longer hospitalization. Learning how to take care of yourself. And then...Erik: More time is better, right? I mean, [Mark: Yeah, a little bit. I think seven months was a little excessive.Erik: Right.Mark: But you know, there's a lot to learn. Your life has really changed. Your spinal cord runs your body, and you're paralyzed from your waist down. You have bowel and bladder issues. You have skin issues you have to be careful about. So all those things were really important, and I had this one [Erik: Not the clunky Vietnam-era things, right?Mark: Exactly. The old Everest and Jennings chairs were more obsolete, and they were using... well there was a woman who started Quickie wheelchairs, Marilyn Hamilton, she got hurt in a hang gliding accident. They took hang gliding technology, clevis pins, aluminum, powder coat. [Erik: We're still less than ten podcasts in here, but we've already heard a lot of stories of people... these No Barrier stories of people who go down deep into these dark places. I don't want to bring you down, but you have a lot of experience right now and so you can look back. You went to a dark [Mark: Yeah. It was close to saying goodbye to this Earth. Fortunately I made it through. I remember getting back into rehab, then I met a state rehab counselor who said, "You know Mark, you have this great love, this great passion for the outdoors, why don't you become a park ranger?" And I'm thinking, "How's somebody in a wheelchair gonna be a park ranger?" I'm thinking [She took me down to Fort Funston where I met a ranger who kind of showed me the ropes and said "Hey, you could maybe do a job, this would be an entry level position, but you could help us plant dune grass and work in the nursery, or you could go to the entrance gate and help out there." [Erik: Cool.Mark: And became a ranger at Yosemite. I remember my first job wasn't exactly my idea being a ranger. There I was sitting in this little kiosk, this little booth, at Big Oak Flat, the entrance to Yosemite. In those days it was a three dollar entrance fee and I'd collect the money and be breathing in auto fumes all day long. That really wasn't [Jeff: Were you transparent with people that would come through the park, with how your injury took place? [Mark: I was, I was. I would start my climbing program off with my accident, actually. And bring that in, because I think that was a big part of it. They might say, "Well who's this guy in a wheelchair, what does he know about climbing?" I'd kind of bring that in. That was before I climbed El Cap, I was doing those things.Jeff: Were you percolating on doing something like that when you were there?Mark: I was. It's kind of an interesting story. There was a magazine called Sports And Spokes, it was a wheelchair [I got the magazine at my little cabin in Yosemite and I had it on my lap. I was wheeling over to the visitor center to open it up in the morning, and I bumped into my future climbing partner Mike Corbet. And Mike's nickname was Mr. El Cap back in the 80s, he had climbed El Cap more than anybody else in the world, over 50 times. And Mike had never really talked about climbing to me because he knew that's how I got hurt. But when [Dave: That's great.Mark: That evening, we were sitting at the mountain room bar, we might have had a beer or two.Dave: Or three.Jeff: That's where all good decisions are made.Mark: Where all good decisions are made. So we had a little beer napkin and we started writing down notes. We said, "Okay, [We knew we were gonna be up there at least a week. I don't have feeling in my legs, so I really needed to protect my legs from any kind of abrasion or any kind of sore that could have occurred up there. We went down to this hardware store in Fresno, California outside [Erik: Weren't they... what was the material of those? I've felt your chaps before. That sound's weird...Dave: The truth comes out.Jeff: Hey, we're all friends here.Mark: The original [Dave: Oh that was lingerie? Not chaps.Jeff: This was the first No Barriers improv meeting, what you're talking about, with your buddy Mike.Mark: Absolutely.Jeff: That was it, that was the genesis of what... fast forward to today, that was the beginning. What [Mark: That was 1988.Jeff: 88. There you go.Mark: Yeah 88. I was 28 years old.Erik: So if you think about it that way, No Barriers began in the Ahwahnee bar.Jeff: Yeah, on a bar stool. On a bar napkin.Dave: I know you guys are all dirt bag climbers. I'm not a dirt bag climber. For our listeners who are not dirt bag climbers, someone paint a picture, because we're getting to the El Cap story. Which is a phenomenal story. Paint a picture of El Cap for us, because not everyone knows what that is.Jeff: Yeah, well. El Cap [Erik: When you stand in the meadows below, which is just clogged with tourists just all driving by gawking. What I've heard, is you have to look up and up and up, way higher than [Dave: And if you see a person climbing, as a person who's not a technical climber speaking, you think "Those people are crazy. They're insane. What are they doing up there?"Jeff: Erik and I climbed El Cap. And his dad, Erik's dad, and future wife were down there in the meadow with telescopes watching us. We had one of those little lighty things, little sticks, and we were shining our headlamps down at everybody. It's [Erik: And as a quote on quote gimp, and that's a word by the way that Mark taught me. I never even heard that word before. It's one of those words I guess you somehow have the license to use if you are...Mark: If you are.Erik: If you are in a chair or you are blind. So what did, when you talked about this out loud, what did people [Mark: Yeah, we had kind of a mixture of both. People that knew us, were "Oh yeah you guys should go do this." Mark's been training, he's always skiing, always riding his bike, hand bike around... well in those days it was more of a row cycle. And then we had people say, mainly not to me so much but more to Mike, "Are you crazy? Take this paraplegic guy up El Cap? Seems like a really stupid [We kind of have a little circuit in Yosemite Valley that we climbed together. We did Jam Crack, the Prude, Warner's Crack, The Rostrum, we went over there.Erik: Oh, wow.Mark: So we did some stuff in the Valley [Jeff: Up at sickle?Mark: We actually went to Heart Ledge.Erik: Wow.Jeff: Over on the south.Mark: Yeah, over on the south. The route we were gonna climb was a shield. So...Jeff: Cause it's overhanging.Mark: It was overhanging... once you get over the shield roof it's overhanging. The beginning of it's not. It's pretty low angle.Jeff: Were you scared at all before you did this or [Mark: I was scared the night before.Jeff: You were.Mark: Yeah.Jeff: Like really scared?Mark: Yeah I was... couldn't sleep. This kind of what happened was... really Mike, about two weeks before we're gonna blast off, Mike goes, "Man we've trained so hard for this, I'm gonna write a letter to Tom Brokaw..." who is the national NBC News guy, who is a climber too, a little bit. And, I'm going, "Okay... " so basically [Erik: Gosh.Mark: And all of a sudden the pressure was on. That's when I really was thinking, "Wow you're telling national news, this is gonna add [Erik: Right.Mark: You know, fix those lines, get all your water, we had 250 pounds...Erik: It's like a trail of ropes that go up 800 feet so you can just...Mark: The next morning...Erik: Start on the ground and zip up 800 feet and have like a jumpstart on this gigantic monolith.Mark: Exactly. And have all your water, all your gear up there. So he had to work three or four days to make that happen prior to us [Erik: "If you look upright you will see a nutcase [Mark: We could actually hear them talking about "Mike Corbet, Mark Wellman, first paraplegic..." So that was kind of interesting. Finally when we topped out, it was seven nights, eight days of climbing. This was before digital technology on El Cap, when national news came out. They had a mule train, they brought out a satellite dish that was like five feet wide, and we were live on top of El [Jeff: Sick.Mark: And we've got... between the Today Show and NBC News, and in a week we were on TV for like several hours if you took all the time that they played this. There wasn't really much going on in the news, so they really kind of played this story up in a big way. As soon as we got off that climb, about a week later, we're sitting in the Oval [Erik: Mark, so you're not that old, but I see [e sports for people with disabilities. I want people to understand that the idea to climb El Cap back in the 80s... nowadays, I think... how many people have climbed El Cap in chairs, paras?Mark: Oh the chairs?Erik: Dozens, right?Mark: Yeah, dozens.Erik: But you sort of unleashed that. You opened up this door. And now, quote on quote gimps are doing everything, right?Mark: Every summer there's [Erik: But you opened that door for all of us. So, it's sort of a crazy thought to me.Mark: It is. You can't take the first ascent of El Cap, you can't take that away from me. That's something I'll always remember. It was a huge accomplishment for both Mike and I, and there's been different paraplegics who have gone up it. A gentleman with cerebral palsy, Steve Wampler, was probably the most [Erik: Those will be our first complaint letters.Dave: Exactly. [crosstalk Mark: Quadriplegics wanna be paraplegics. Everybody has their differences. There's been a quadriplegic, incompletequadriplegic, climbed El Cap with Tommy Thompson, good climber. [Erik: There's that kid who climbed The Chief, he was inspired by you.Mark: Yep.Erik: He was a quad, and he climbed The Chief. He invented kind of this, almost like a contraption with wheels if I remember right, that kind of rolled up the face.Mark: Yeah it was... the premise was taking the Dolt cart. A climber by name of Dolt had this cart and he used to use it for a hauling system on El Cap. Brad "Szinski", the Canadian guy you're talking about, he came up with this [Jeff: This sort of set you [Mark: Thirty five.Jeff: Yeah thirty five years. Now you've continued this trajectory of being this pioneer when it comes to just making it work. You make it work, right?Mark: I was so young. When I got hurt [Erik: Yep.Mark: And there was a guy named Pete "Rikee". It's funny... people [Erik: That was a pod that they were in, that had almost like tractor wheels, right?Mark: Exactly. What we did is we took a snowmobile and cut the snowmobile track in half and made a tractor stance. So you have two tracks and a seat with a bicycle crank, and we actually crank our way up Mount Shasta. We had to get special permit from the Forest [Erik: Sometimes they don't get it.Mark: And he wasn't getting it at all. He was thinking mechanical device...Jeff: Motorized...Mark: Right. He knew who I was, so he said "Come up and bring the machine with you so I can take a look at it." So I brought one of the snow pods up there and I met with the district ranger [Erik: And El Cap really launched you into being able to do all these amazing things, right? You pretty much became aprofessional climber, adventurer, doing these things around the world. I know you lit the torch for the Paralympics, right?Mark: I did, I lit the Paralympic torch in Atlanta in 1996. [Erik: You had a lot more hair...Mark: So I said, "Let's make this torch holder so it comes off your legs." So they made that for me. That night we're training, I get up the 80 foot rope, and I lit the fuse and the fuse blew out.Erik: Oh no.Mark: And the pyrotechnics guy goes, it was windy, and the [Jeff: You did not combust.Mark: I did not combust. I had the best seat in the house.Erik: You'd be like a Motley Crue drummer.Mark: Exactly. So that was fun.Erik: Takes us on a little tour of what you did. All those amazing adventures that you did after that. Takes us on a little tour around the world.Mark: What a lot of people don't realize, which I think is harder than climbing [Jeff: And they're vikings.Mark: And they're vikings, man. They're so tough. My best finish out of 30 guys was of fifth place, that was in France. [Jeff: Wow.Mark: Following the Tioga road.Jeff: Just the two of you?Mark: Well we also had Pearlman with us too.Erik: Filming.Mark: He was filming, yeah.Erik: And, you gotta tell the story about the White Rim. So you biked the White Rim, I think you were on one off mountain bikes?Mark: [Erik: Or some kind of devices, hand crank mountain bikes. And it was so sandy, the story I heard, you had to get out and you had to pretty much pull yourself on your arms and pull your chair, did you pull the other guys chairs too? Or were the other guys' bikes...Mark: It was an epic, groveling adventure. Seems like everything I do turns into that.Jeff: Yeah. [crosstalk Mark: If you're not suffering, you're not having a good time. That's kind of how it is out there. We had these one off mountain bikes and [Jeff: I mean, If I'm riding my mountain bike and I come up on that scene in the middle of the White Rim, who knows what to make of that?Mark: [Jeff: Like, "You guys are good right?" and they'll be like "Yep, we're good man."Erik: Leave us alone.Jeff: Leave us alone.Mark: Don't touch me.Jeff: There's nothing to see here. Yeah.Erik: Yeah.Jeff: Wow, that's rad.Mark: And then recently, just a couple of years ago... in the winter we had a drought in California and Tahoe, so I circumnaved Lake Tahoe in a kayak in winter. And that was a really amazing adventure. It was 72 [Dave: So Mark, you are someone who really embodies the spirit of No Barriers and you helped [Mark: You know, No Barriers... I did a movie called No Barriers, and I got a poster out called No Barriers. It was a word that really meant a lot to me. My wife and I, we were down in San Francisco at a fundraiser... in those days it was called Yosemite Fund, now it's called Yosemite [This was probably after your Everest...Erik: Yeah, after.Mark: This was after your Everest climb. And I said "Hey, these [Erik: Climbing the Fisher Tower.Mark: Yeah. The Fisher Tower. Ancient Ark.Erik: Mm-hmm (affirmative).Mark: And it was this really fantastic climb. I'd like to get these two guys involved with what we're talking about. SO I called Erik, I called Hugh, and we ended up putting our first [Erik: I remember the chair operators didn't even know how to get people with disabilities on the chairs.Mark: They didn't have [Erik: On the ski lifts. Thank you. Yeah.Mark: They weren't doing adaptive skiing in those days in that little village. It was actually the home of the 1956 Olympics. SO that was kind of my envision was to start this, and who knew it was gonna get into what it is today. It's just amazing what you guys have done, and all the different things No Barriers has to offer people.Erik: What do you think about when you think about the evolution? You had this little germ [Mark: [sighs] It's kind of mind boggling how it's grown so big and how many different people it affects, it's not just the disabled community, it's able bodied community bringing everyone together. Trying new experiences. The youth programs [Erik: And you bring your climbing wall, your portable climbing wall.Mark: I'll have...Erik: Almost to every summit. So that's your mission now, right? To go around and use your climbing wall as a No Barriers tool to help people break through barriers. Tell us about that.Mark: Absolutely. Climbing has been such a big part of my life, that I just like to introduce different [I had a gentleman that had spina bifida and he was unfortunately caught up in the American society of drinking a lot of soda, [We bring in, mini El Cap I call it, and we get people on it and we have a great time.Erik: And you're traveling around with your wall, full time. People bring you in to create this experience for their [Mark: Exactly. All those venues... I do adaptive climbing seminars. So a gym might call me and wanna know, "how do we get an adaptive climbing program going?" So I do that. And a lot of times I'll do not only a seminar on adaptive climbing, but then maybe that evening do a show and tell about adventure sports and where adventure sports have taken the disabled in the last 35 [Erik: And you are like Kleenex now, because... you talk about the pulley system, it's not a pulley system, pull up system, a lot of people say, "Oh yeah, Mark Wellman system."Mark: Yeah, it's... yeah it's kind of getting that way.Jeff: You're like Beyonce now.Mark: I'm like Beyonce. It's just kind of neat that my passions over the years... everybody should have a passion. And my passion has always been [Dave: I'd like to go back to that... You've told us a story, sort of the arc of your life, and when I look at you Mark and think about what you've accomplished I think "God, this is incredible. [Erik: Yeah, you're de motivational.Mark: Right, right. I know, I get it.Dave: I'd love to hear, what do you think we can... 'cause this is what we do at No Barriers. We... If you're [t...Mark: Yeah.Dave: ...that teaches them anything is possible. So talk to us a little bit about, Mark, how did you get to that point? Is it just sort of who you were from the beginning, was it an evolution? It just seems like everything you encountered, you are like, "I can do more."Mark: I think it's really important for people to get out of their comfort zone. Nowadays, it's so easy for young people to get... they get into gaming. And they [And that's where I think it's really important if you're facilitating skiing or climbing, or whatever you're facilitating, you have to make sure that these people, their first experience is a good one. If they don't have a good experience, most likely they're not gonna go back to it. And, it's really important that the very first time... One of our board members, Sasha. [Dave: Yeah.Mark: And there's stories like that all the time. Or Mandy, I remember her... wonderful singer. She got on my wall, it was 25 feet, and she [Jeff: Relative for her.Mark: Could have been a 1000 foot climb. But she made it through. And came down... I got a guy that helps me, Wes, he's a search and rescue guy, kind of a big guy. He's just magical with [Erik: And I think that experience, by the way, gave her the courage to go out and do something completely non-climbing related, which was to write music and to go on to America's Got Talent, and...Mark: Exactly.Erik: Get into the finals, and now skyrocket into stardom.Mark: To fame. Absolutely. Making a better quality life for herself. [Erik: Last question for [Mark: Oh man. There's been a lot for sure. There was a guy named... actually I think you're thinking of a guy named Mark Sutherland. When I first got hurt, Mark was a quadriplegic ten [I was just thinking, "Not having the use of my legs, I'm not gonna ski again, I'm not gonna climb." I was 22, I was just like, "Why didn't the mountain just take me." Those were the kind of thoughts I was having. But then I would go into this guys room, Mark Sutherland, and he would talk about, "Oh I had this milk truck that I converted, and I had a stool. One time I was driving it with my hand controls [Jeff: And you were like, "That's the greatest story ever."Mark: Yeah. I wanna do that. So I was just hearing this stuff from this guy, and he was talking about girlfriends, and how he was running around doing this and doing that, and I'm going, "Man, this guy has a life." And it was really inspiring to be... so where I was really depressed and laying in the hospital bed, and couldn't feel [Jeff: Showed you it wasn't a death sentence.Mark: Yeah. Showed me it wasn't a death sentence, and let's get on with life, dude. And it was like, boom. That just changed me. Then we went into rehab together, we were more in a hospital setting and then we both went into our physical rehab. That's [Dave: Well, just to wrap up this excellent conversation that we're having about the history of No Barriers and all that you've done as well just individually, you've seen No Barriers be this thing that started in the Dolomites in 2003, we're 15 years into this. What's your dream for what it becomes?Mark: Wow. I would just consider it to be... I'd like to see maybe a couple summits a year, possible. [Erik: What if people want to learn how to get in touch with you, how to work with you, how to bring your wall to their organization?Mark: Yeah. Google Mark Wellman or just go to my website, No Limits Tahoe dot com. Give me a call.Erik: Although they won't talk to you, 'cause you're never home. You're always out [crosstalk Dave: Always on the road, right.Mark: Well, no, yeah I'm easy to get a hold of. Talk to my wife, Carol, [Erik: Right.Mark: Send me an email. I'm better on the phone, I don't like to email tons. Love to talk to you, if you have ideas lets talk about, lets see you at the summit. Lets get out and enjoy life.Erik: Cool. Well thank you so much Mark.Jeff: Listen Mark, I know you well enough to know you don't need to hear what I'm about to tell you, but, I think it's important for you and the listeners to know [Erik: Tens of thousands.Jeff: Thousands of lives dude. You have been the kick starter [Mark: I appreciate it man, it's humbling. And, to take a passion that I had and a dream... and like I said, just simple adaptations, a pull up bar on a jumar. Man, how that changed other people to go climb up El Cap, or do Castleton, or whatever [Dave: Well it's been an honor to have you here Mark, I know many of our listeners are part of that No Barriers tribe. Many of them will know you, but a [Mark: Mm-hmm (affirmative).Dave: And you are the point that Jeff mentioned where it began, and so, thank you so much for joining us, we appreciate having you.Mark: My pleasure.Erik: What did you guys take away from that? Might take us a while.Dave: Yeah. Exactly.Jeff: Might be a lengthy debrief on that one.Dave: I guess for me, as someone who's helping to build [Erik: Yeah. I think that, No Barriers recipe is sort of hidden right in the story of El Capitan, which is... Mark's a smart guy, but he's not a scientist or anything, he's not Hugh Herr, who's inventing stuff where you go, "I could never do that." What he said is a pull up bar and a jumar. These are commercially available things. I think he had to adapt a few things, but [Dave: It is.Jeff: All the big things that have happened with regards to our species all started with this small [Dave: Well, and the movement continues. So if you're sitting there listening saying, "I wanna be a part of this organization, I wanna be a [Erik: Live No Barriers.Dave: Thanks.