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Guest: John Espirian Topic: Marketing and Bad Practices (Social Media)
Discussion Points • Automation • Communicating • Being generic • PODS! • And a bit of footi
Enjoy the Episode - Happy Marketing!
Website Thingy: www.marketingstudylab.co.uk The Professional Bit: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petersumpton/ Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/marketingstudylab/ Tweet Tweet: https://twitter.com/cousinp81
Transcript (this transcript isn’t 100% accurate but provides a decent representation of the conversation – soz for any confusion)
Peter Sumpton And we're back live on a Friday. And my guest yet again, I've got another guest because no one wants to be alone on a Friday evening delay. And what better guest to have on a Friday than John Espirian. The legend that is.
So, John, I'm not going to do your intro. I'm sick of introducing you to be phased in. I'm a podcast twice. I always talk about you on multiple podcasts. So I'm gonna let you do your own intro this time. But enough of me and this is my last time. Yeah, absolutely.
John Espirian Yeah, I'm john, Experian. I'm a technical copywriter by trade, I also call myself a LinkedIn nerd, because I've been researching this platform for bloody forever. So I help people with their LinkedIn profiles, I write content for their websites, and try to be an all round most guy where I can. But I'm not gonna be a nice guy today, I think we're gonna have a bit of a moan we can today about social. Yeah, and why not? I think, as always just introduce what we're doing here today. So we're live on Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. If you have any comments, just please post them below as we as we go along. But the reason I do these lives on a Friday is to have a bit of a general chat with somebody about marketing, and, and then whatever that might be. So today, it's social media, bad practice, but let's just call it a social media moan about things that we do what other people do, should I say No boss, obviously, because we're squeaky clean, that other people do that just either bad practice, don't work shouldn't be done. You wouldn't do that in real life. So why don't you do it on a social platform? Those types of things. But before we start, john, I've got a little quiz for you. It's just it's one one quick question. And I want you to tell me, who said this, okay. Don't ever try to sell me on anything. Give me all the information. And I'll make my own decisions.
I believe that was Mr. Kardashian, wasn't it?
Wait, I mean, your success rate must be so low. So I just think that sales approach just isn't for me. And I can't imagine that it works for anyone to be honest. I mean, you'd feel that there's that much around that it works for some people, but I don't know. I'd be amazed if to find somebody, I'm yet to find somebody in the listening, please speak up and say, do all the time. And it really works. Because we automate it to 60,000 people. And we get to people say, Yeah, well, this is the thing that we see back in the day, if it was, alright, you're going to be using an automation tool to spam loads of people through email, then you can even I didn't agree with that. Either, you can kind of at least see that the finances make sense, because it's not costing you any more to send a message to 500,000 people than it is to 5000 people, or many fewer so so then I can kind of see why automation will work. But on social media,
unless you're going to do it through the automated route, then I don't see any any reason why you would try that because it would take me so much effort to get a single lead out of that approach, that maybe people are just automating. And that's that. That's another one of the bad practices is just the the process of doing what I would call Front of House automation is a bad thing, you know, so So I mean, I talked about this in content DNA, it's it's back of house automation is all right, you know, the stuff that you can't see, that makes the business's processes smoother, but that isn't detectable at the front end. That's cool. And that's smart. But front of house, you know, where you can see that they'll start a message with Hey there. Okay, what's automated? You know, just something that obviously looks like it's boilerplate text. I just can't imagine that that that works on the modern social media. Use it definitely doesn't work on me. And I think I know a lot of people actually a lot of people who've been put off, I mean, LinkedIn specifically, but I'm sure this happens everywhere, because they'll say, is just full of sales pitches. Uh huh. And so, you know, it's actually, you know, it's damaging, because the people who might actually have something interesting to say thinking stuff this for a game of soldiers, I'm not going to hold on where someone's just going to be bombing my inbox with all sorts of rubbish.
Peter Sumpton I'd love to know if even down to the point of view of, we've got this new product out now, as a post. I'd love to know if that's ever worked for anybody. And I suppose it must, in some industries? Absolutely. But in general on LinkedIn, I'd be amazed if that is a good tactic to to utilise in, in anything on LinkedIn just seems a bit crazy to me.
John Espirian Yeah, I think we need to earn the right. Mm, ourselves. And so you know, I've heard some marketers say, well, maybe one in five of your posts could be promotional, maybe one in 10 of your product could be promotional, maybe one in 20 of your posts, it depends on who you listen to. But I think you've got to make sure that you you do something that educates and informs and entertains to earn the right to pitch to people.
Peter Sumpton And there's a way of doing that. Yeah. And and the thing that I like about the way you go about what what you do, from your website to social and I suppose we'll we'll cover it in in a little while in terms of being the same everywhere, is that you don't you don't sell you educate, but you do it from the point of view of very much openness and transparency, there's not a lot to hide in terms of what you offer from a business perspective. And what you tell people, you know, you're up front with your rates, you're up front, you push them promote the industry, and other people in it. And it's like, it's just all for the good, really, and why wouldn't that be a thing?
John Espirian Yeah, well, I think a lot of people have got that that kind of scared competition mindset. Yeah, you know, the big realisation that most people don't have is that your biggest competitor isn't the guy down the road, who does the same thing as you, the biggest competitor is complete inaction, isn't it, your way your brain is tuned to try and conserve energy not have to make hard decisions. And easy decision for it to make is to do nothing. Mm hmm. Conscious brain is the easiest thing is to do nothing. So that's the competitor you're dealing with. So if you if you're battling that foe, you've got to make it as simple and frictionless and trustworthy to deal with someone as possible so that you can move them to that point where they actually do want to do something. And you're not going to do that by hiding stuff. You know, I think that those days are over now, you know, you can't, you can't keep secrets on the internet. It doesn't work like that. So So I think, you know, quite apart from the fact I think it's just the ethical thing is just to tell people the truth as much as possible. I just think it's the smart business thing to do. I mean, when it comes to decision, who are you going to trust the person who lays out all of the facts, and even some of the flaws? Or someone who just says, you know, shiny, shiny, everything is brilliant. Let's get into a consultation. We'll talk about prices later. Well, no, that's not going to work. You've got to, I think you've got to be more and more transparent. And we'll we'll eventually reach a point where the only successful businesses are the ones who actually do share everything up front. And people can make an informed choice. And there'll be less hoodwinking, hopefully in the future.
Peter Sumpton The ones the one thing I've noticed of my career, I suppose we're going to a bit of a tangent, I'll bring it back in a moment. But the one thing that I've I've noticed over over my career is that if you do that standard, go to an event which those event things still exist somewhere in the world. If you if you go to an event and you say, how's business, and the answer is good. That means it's terrible. It's like why wouldn't you just say, Well, I'm actually struggling at the moment to be fair, you know, welcome to business so if if you know anybody that can benefit from what we've got to offer, you know, let's let's connect that I don't understand why there wouldn't be that that honestly I've never got that.
John Espirian Yeah, yeah, totally.
Peter Sumpton So because you can't have your standard background I feel like I should pick
John Espirian my
brain blue This can't be right this is not right. And this this this this whole thing is blue in front to me now.
Peter Sumpton I very treatable Garrison's.
For people that don't know is that well, I'm currently sat in an office in the centre of the champions of England. So in Liverpool City Centre, which is cool England as we know likes to tell people even. And this isn't rock Far from it, but fabulous book. I was talking about this book and talking about it. I'm sure it was yesterday. And yes, it was yesterday with with both our friend, Nicole Osborne. And I can, I can just nice little thing then at the bottom six times, there you go loving. And you're sorry,
John Espirian I hope that's out of date soon.
Peter Sumpton Yeah.
But the thing that I was saying is that i've i've don't read many books, but I've read this book because it was just dead easy to read. It's not too long. It's full of valuable information. And this isn't me blowing smoke up your ass. This is me being perfectly honest. But the thing that I intended to do in life gets in the way is go back through it, and start to mark up the elements that I need to have in my business. And I haven't done that. In fact, I've got two pages in my diary of notes from it. And that is it. But that is on my to do list. So just wanted to highlight the fact that anyone that's listening, check out content DNA, because it's, it's a really good read. It's simple to read and understand what you need to do. And it's just about applying it. And like you said, it's my brain that stopped me from doing that more than anything, because time isn't. Time is never an excuse.
John Espirian Yeah, I think I think I mean, your case you've got there, you've got the whole Lego thing going on. And isn't that mark, memorable kind of hook that you've got there? And you know, most people who've seen me on LinkedIn, know that, you know, I'm wearing and now I've got my bitmoji on. And it's like, it's almost like a bit of a cornerstone, isn't it? It's like, you want to occupy that space in people's mind that says, Oh, yeah, it's that guy who does whatever. And they've got really quick and easy way of remembering them. So if that if that Lego marketer is that cartoony, LinkedIn guy, I mean, I'm not saying that everyone needs an avatar in that same way. I think everyone needs a hook. Definitely. Because everyone's coming in the sea of sameness, aren't you? But
Peter Sumpton yeah, yeah. And if you if you can link that to your personality, or who you actually are, which I think we both do that, then you're on to a positive thing, because regardless of what how people say it, you know, like, Oh, that's the Lego person or they, you know, they've got that cartoon character that is about them and linked to them. It's that link, it's that association. And it makes it memorable, because they've actually remembered it. They might not remember that the exact phrase or what it is, but they've remembered it because it stands out, like you say,
John Espirian yeah, that's the thing. And it's what a lot of people don't do, and they end up kind of being actually they ended up doing what I used to do before, you know, short of a few years ago, where I was just too scared to be myself. And so you end up being really generic in what you do, you know, you just end up really being if you even if you're not a boring person you come across as being really boring and just be you forgettable. And what's the point? What's the point of being on social media, if you're not going to be yourself? discussion the other day and just seeing someone's writing and thinking that's not? That's not right. That's not them. Not? They're not like that. What are they writing like that? They're just, it's, it's, you know, I mean, there are many worse practices on social media. But honestly, if you're not yourself, then you're going to attract the wrong people, or you're not going to attract anyone, in which case, what's the point in any of it? You know, yeah. People you want people to when they actually get into a phone call, or a zoom call, or meeting you in person, if that's ever going to be possible again, and you want them to go, Oh, yeah, you know, you're exactly the way you were in your LinkedIn, or on your website or whatever. You don't want to give people that shock to the system. Like, oh, you're actually really funny and
Peter Sumpton well expected.
John Espirian Or worse, you know, you've got you've paid someone to, to make you look really polished and funny and whatever online. And actually, you can have delis teach water, but it's just probably the worst. I hate seeing those kind of disconnects. You know, where, where it doesn't all line up. Just that does my head in to be honest. So I won't get as open and honest and real as they can if if you are then then I think you know everyone has something interesting to say you can you can get on quite well with with with social media. That's that's what I found the last years. I just relaxed. I've just been myself. And hey, it's working out.
Peter Sumpton Yeah, absolutely. which is which is brilliant to hear at one thing, just just leading on from there. So we both come from a corporate background or we have worked in in those industries before. How and I think you alluded to just then but how long did it take for you to wash that out? Have your system
John Espirian probably I'd say about
five or six years
really relax into into my voice. It took a while, you know, I mean, social media when I, when I set up my own business, I did set up a website Pretty soon, but I didn't get into social media straightaway. So it's kind of a late adopter. And yeah, you know, you're so used to kind of, you've got to wear a shirt and tie mindset. It takes you a while to let go of that and think actually, does anyone care? Like, wouldn't they just rather have a real conversation with a real person? So yeah, sorry, it did take me a while. So it's all very well and good, me telling people, hey, you need to just relax and be yourself. So I can't I can't lecture anyone on this. I'm just, it works when you do. So try to find a way to do it quicker than five or six years, because it will really benefit you if you can.
Peter Sumpton But it can be it can be really hard. In Iceland, I sometimes start writing something and then I look back at a sentence and think, why have you written Haha, that's just not. That's not even how you even speak, let alone right? Like, what what are you doing? And then I'll delete and rewrite it because it takes a while to to watch out, I think.
John Espirian Yeah. Yeah, it's one of the things I say in the book, actually, it's just the best thing you can do is read your own writing out loud before you commit it to the digital page. And if it doesn't sound like you, you better you better edit it, because someone's gonna see the gaps. You know, someone's gonna guess that, you know, you're not saying something right there. So yeah, it's really important that three important tip to get your content writers to read out loud.
Peter Sumpton So yeah, I agree. And I put myself in that bracket. I don't. I'm more of a writer and go kind of bloke and I know I need to work on that. Because sometimes, like typos are my nemesis. But I'm not the best copywriter in the world to be fair, so yeah, I try. But what I'd like to do is focus on an Oh, we've been talking around these topics, but some of those things that really get our go or grind our gears or bad practices on social and things that people can if, if anyone's watching or listening can look to avoid, because it's just like, No, just don't, you might have seen it work. And someone's ended up with 50,000 followers, and they get engagement every single time they post. But I think really like is that just all fluff and rubbish, which it probably is. But that was the first one that interests me is automation. Yeah. So let's just have a quick chat about automation on social platforms.
John Espirian Well, I think, again, this is something I used to do. So hey, you know, I'm a reformed, reformed Automator. Back in sort of 2016, I thought that social media was popping on to a scheduling tool for 20 minutes on a Sunday evening, lining up a load of blog posts and other interesting stuff that I've come across during the week, and setting it to shedule throughout the following week, and then getting on with something else. And that was that was social media. And a lot of people still do that. Or they buy actual media manager who does that for them. That's not social media at all. That drip drip bought broadcasting, isn't it? It's not social media, you just putting stuff out, it gets zero likes and comments, and everyone ignores it. What's actually social media isn't about that kind of automation. When I when I came to realise that that wasn't the right way of doing things, when actually thought maybe the best way to do it is actually to be social actually engage in conversation, and, you know, engage on other people's posts, respond to people who are looking at my posts, try and have conversations with them in public and in private through direct messages. You can't automate any of that. You could, I suppose you could pay someone to do that bit for you. But that's just taking the task off your desk, and giving it to someone else who has to become a mimic for you, well, they're probably not gonna be able to do that either very well. But certainly just automating the broadcasting bit on its own isn't gonna work. If you automate the broadcasting and also are around to engage with people and go and seek out other content that you can comment on or, you know, collaborate with and have private conversations. If you're around to do those bits, then then brilliant, but without those bits, your social media ain't very social, and you're not going to get really any results from it. I I can't think of anyone that I know who does do. Just that. broadcasts broadcast broadcast and gets results, apart from the mega influences. So if you're someone who's got a million followers,
