In this episode, I chat with Michelle Trebilcock, Ph.D. Michelle is an Anglican Priest and Chaplain at the Brotherhood of St. Laurence in Melbourne, Australia. She's also a contributor to a new book on Liminality titled, Neither Here nor There: The Many Voices of Liminality.Michelle and I explored spirituality and meditation, ritual vs. ceremony, instability, the future of the Church, and uncertainty during the pandemic.Learn more: https://www.amazon.com/Neither-Here-There-Timothy-Carson/dp/0718895436