Join us as we talk about all things you should give yourself permission to do in homeschool - change, quit, protect, trust, and say yes. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors   We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings:   Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase   Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class    Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription  LTWs    Maren: Love Hard   Angela: Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery   Connect with us!  Visit our website  Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren  Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com   Complete Episode Transcript   [00:00:09] Maren: hi, we're Mar and Angela of homeschool, unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters, together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling. We're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic  [00:00:28] Angela: lens. [00:00:30] At Homeschool, unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and BI voices.  [00:00:48] Maren: We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:51] Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at home or all your kids are [00:01:00] at school or somewhere in between. Wherever you are on your journey, we are the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are your  [00:01:07] Angela: kids. This is episode 2 0 2. [00:01:11] You don't need our permission, but we are gonna talk about five things we should always allow ourselves to do, and then we are gonna end like we always do with our lt. Ws Loving this week. And before we get started, we wanted to let you know if you are listening to this the day it comes out on Monday, then tomorrow, December. [00:01:33] Sixth, we are going to be having our class in Patreon that's gonna be all about how to take a winter break. Mm-hmm. . And that is gonna be at one o'clock central. We'd love to have you there. It's gonna be informal. There's gonna be 30 minutes of us talking live, and then there's gonna be 15 minutes of q and a. [00:01:52] So if you'd like to join us, you can go to pat our Patreon links in the show notes and get set up there.  [00:01:57] Maren: Yes.  [00:01:59] All [00:02:00] of my kids' favorite classes they've taken have been from out school, which is one of the reasons we're thrilled to have them as a sponsor. We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. [00:02:11] They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their. Connect with diverse peers from around the world and take an active role in leading their learning out. [00:02:33] School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey.  [00:02:38] Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning free. Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined, and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll  [00:02:56] Angela: with the code on. We [00:03:00] love when companies try to teach subjects in new and innovative ways, and that's why we're so excited to introduce you to Night Zookeeper. [00:03:08] Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, then night zookeeper may just be what you're looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills all while having fun at the same time. [00:03:31] Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors and the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. [00:03:50] When you register, they'll get a seven day risk free trial as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. That is a great deal if you ask me.  [00:03:59] Maren: [00:04:00] My family has spent so many hours outside and learning about life. If this sounds like your family, you might like Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:04:18] Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschooling families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:04:43] Volume one is available for purchase and volume two is available for presale all profits from this history curriculum. A River of voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. [00:04:57] You can find samples, scope, and [00:05:00] sequences and information about each of their levels online@blossomandroute.com. You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Route. Blossom and has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15%  [00:05:18] Angela: off your purchase. All right, well, today we are talking about permission and how you don't actually need our permission to do some of the things we're gonna talk about, but we think we have a five different categories of things. [00:05:31] We think that you should allow yourself the permission to. Do when you're homeschooling. Exactly.  [00:05:38] Maren: These are things we wanna actually normalize. I think that was like our alternative title, like let's normalize these things, make them so that we don't even have to  [00:05:47] Angela: feel like we have to give ourselves permission. [00:05:51] Mm-hmm. , it's just something we do. It's normal. Well, I think like a lot of times the pressures of whatever, you know, the outside world. Yes. [00:06:00] Also, like the pressures you place on yourself mm-hmm. Can be can really like, weigh on you as you are thinking about some of these things.  [00:06:08] Maren: Yes. I do think we as homeschoolers often already feel like we're kind of outside of the norm a little bit. Yeah, right. We've, we've, we say this a lot on our podcast, like we have done something kind of going against green homeschooling, . Yeah. It's different, right? [00:06:25] And so sometimes we do feel like, well, we can't go way out. Let's not go  [00:06:30] Angela: way out there and do something even. There still has to be some standards.  [00:06:33] Maren: We have to have standards. And so let's do the standards that, you know, some of the standards that everybody else does too, right? Like it just feels a little safer. [00:06:41] It feels like it's socially acceptable and so, which is great. I, and I actually think that's okay to do that sometimes too. But I also want  [00:06:51] Angela: us  [00:06:52] Maren: to. Utilize the freedom we have in, you know, homeschoolers. We get to make decisions. The [00:07:00] reason a lot of times the reason why we, you know, decide to homeschool is so that we can make different choices for our family and we can do things that are healthier and better for our kids  [00:07:10] Angela: and for us, more  [00:07:12] Maren: personalized. [00:07:13] More personalized mm-hmm. . And yet we sometimes then shrug those choices off because it feels too much at that moment.  [00:07:19] Angela: Yes. Yes, definitely. So this, you know, this, we're doing this episode intentionally at the beginning of December because, you know, we're like three months into a school year here. Most of us are taking a holiday break coming up or a winter break. [00:07:34] And so you know, we're thinking about some of these things, but we wanna make sure, you know, if you listen to this in May or February or October, it still applies. Yes, because again, you don't need our permission, but we're telling you that you can do these things. You, you should allow yourself the permission to do these things anytime,  [00:07:52] Maren: anytime, anytime. [00:07:54] And, and it's important to think about them anytime, not just during a holiday or a, [00:08:00] you know. You know, a time off or something. Right? Right. It's important to like continue to, this is a living thing, .  [00:08:07] Angela: Right. Okay. So the first thing that we wanna give you or that you should give yourself permission to do is change. [00:08:13] And that can be a lot of different things. You can change how you school. You, you are allowed to do this. You are allowed to change the big picture things like going from homeschool to online school. You are allowed to put your kids in online school. Maybe homeschool just isn't working for you right now, or you need a little bit more support or a little bit more guidance. [00:08:33] It is okay to do that. It is also okay to switch from switch in the opposite direction. It is okay. If you are doing online school, it's not working, it's okay to switch to homeschool. It's okay to also put your kids in school. It's okay to also pull your kids from school. Yes, you can. You can do that anytime you feel like it's the right thing  [00:08:55] Maren: to do. [00:08:56] And change what's right for each kid. Maybe. I know it's, for me, [00:09:00] I really value making my life easier and I, my goal has always been we're all doing the same thing because when we're all doing the same thing, then I don't have to drive four kids to four  [00:09:13] Angela: different places or whatever. But realistically,  [00:09:15] Maren: my kids all have different needs. [00:09:17] Mm-hmm. . And so I, we have made changes to Yes. Logistically it's a little bit trickier for us to get to different places. But it is so much  [00:09:27] Angela: better for  [00:09:28] Maren: everyone, for the whole family when we're all in the place and, and doing the learning  [00:09:35] Angela: that works best for all. Right. So you made changes. Yes. And I think that's pretty common. [00:09:42] I would say like when your kids are younger, it's easier for you to do things altogether or all the same. Mm-hmm. . And then as they get older and their specific styles and needs emerge. Right. And, and desires. Like we want to accommodate [00:10:00] that. So that makes sense.  [00:10:01] Maren: And even within homeschool, maybe you need to switch co-op. [00:10:05] Fine. It's okay to do that. It's great. I mean, you're, I don't ever think of change as, as negative. It's like you're getting closer and closer to the, you know, you're, you're moving in the right direction. Yeah. You  [00:10:19] Angela: know more, now you know more, more about your child and what works or doesn't work in this season or forever, whatever. [00:10:26] And so it is good. It's a change is a. Right. Or maybe you're switching  [00:10:31] Maren: from,  [00:10:31] More of a, an unschool approach to more direct teaching approach or something like that. Maybe that is just what's right for you or vice versa. Mm-hmm. , you're going to more unschooling because that's how it's working for you right now. [00:10:45] I think that's great. And then also we need to just consider. What's the style that fits your child's needs the most? Mm-hmm. , and this can change over time too, as our kids mature, as their needs change as their interests change as their, as [00:11:00] they are a learning about themselves and, and, you know, in homeschool, you, they really do get to know themselves very well. [00:11:08] They're able to do that. And, and when they're able to verbalize that and. When you know more, you do the thing that works best then, right? And so, right.  [00:11:19] Angela: So what is your kid really into, like what are they, what do they do in their free time? What it really excites them? You could just do more of that, right? [00:11:27] If that's, if that what, if that's what would make things like come alive for them. You should allow yourself to do  [00:11:34] Maren: that. Right, right, right. And the style, you know, and when I say style, I don't always even mean you know, Active versus, you know, sitting at a table. It could also just be like your child listens to audiobooks or, you know, reads more audio audiobooks than ires. [00:11:53] Mm-hmm. great. Like pick up on that. And, and you can do more of the out your child does [00:12:00] math better on an app? Mm-hmm. than sitting at, you know, doing a book. Great. Mm-hmm. awesome. Pick up on that. My child loves to bake. We spent hours in the kitchen. Mm-hmm. still do . And so I think that that is, that's all learning and that can change. [00:12:19] Like you can make more time  [00:12:20] Angela: for that. For sure. Yep. And maybe you have learned that you need to either get out of the house more mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. And go on more adventures. Or maybe you've learned definitely that you've been outta the house too much and you need more time at home. You are allowed to like make your schedule, make your routines right to fit what works for you. [00:12:40] And it's okay to do that mid-year or mm-hmm. a month into the school year or whatever it, you don't have to. Yes. Like stick with something that's not working.  [00:12:49] Maren: Exactly. Exactly. Yep. All right. Let's move on to number two. Number two is you can give yourself permission to quit. Yes. Quit a variety of things and in a [00:13:00] variety of ways. [00:13:00] You can quit permanently. Something this is, this is just not for me. It's not happening, not for my kids. You can also quit. So, Indefinitely until we're ready, . Yeah. Yeah. Until we're ready to come back, we're quitting. Mm-hmm. . Yep.  [00:13:17] Angela: So I feel like this right now, like we said at the beginning of December, so I'm sure you're thinking of a break probably. [00:13:23] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And, you know, you might be thinking, yeah, we're taking two weeks off, we're taking three weeks off, we're taking a month off. You can, you should allow yourself to do that. You could also allow yourself to, you know, not come back till the end of January. Or whatever works for your family. [00:13:38] However much time you think everyone needs, you are not bound to this outside culture schedule. Yes. That everyone else is bound to . You know, maybe you want to do lots of out outdoor activities right now. That's fine. You can take the time to do that and then come back later for some more structure that you might, yes. [00:13:57] Yep. Yep. If you want that. [00:14:00]  [00:14:00] Maren: And quitting I think has a bad. It does. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . It feels like a fail, like failing sometimes in some ways, or it's been deemed that way  [00:14:12] Angela: by many people. Just never quitting. Never quitting is a thing.  [00:14:15] Maren: Never quit. You need to get rid of that. Right, right. Well, my kids need to learn persistence and how to, you know, work through something hard, which is true. [00:14:22] We get, you know, totally understand that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . And then also there is this, these skills in quitting. Mm-hmm. , like understanding yourself and listening to what you. Making a plan to quit. Like you don't, maybe you don't quit cold Turkey. Like right now, we're not, we're just  [00:14:35] Angela: with this, you know, maybe we finish out the semester Yes. [00:14:40] Piano lessons because we've already committed and paid mm-hmm. , but we know at the end of December we're gonna take a break.  [00:14:47] Maren: Yep. And Okay. I'm just gonna hear, I'm just gonna tell you a quick personal story. I won't get too detailed, but like, one of my, one of my kids just quit a sport and it was it was, it was really apparent led for a long time. [00:14:59] [00:15:00] Like we were, we were just like so excited for this child to like, join anything. And so we kind of coaxed them into it. They got, they got kinda  [00:15:07] Angela: excited for a while. Yep. Yep.  [00:15:10] Maren: And then you know, mid-semester, so it wasn't even at the end of anything. But it was just, we could tell it was just not worth the fight anymore. [00:15:20] Mm. It's just not worth the fight. And this child was communicating so well to us why this wasn't working for them. Mm. Yeah. And while we tried to stick it out to the end of the semester, it really didn't, like, the cus benefit wasn't, it just wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't worth it for us. And so we made the decision to stop mid-semester gasp. [00:15:42] I know, but it was the right thing. Yeah. For this child and  [00:15:46] Angela: for our family really. I like when you talked about cost benefit. I mean, I don't love that necessarily terminology, but I like that you're saying like, what, what is the cost here for us? Yeah. You know, this child's unhappiness are having to drag them out of [00:16:00] the. [00:16:00] Yeah. Our fighting relationship,  [00:16:02] Maren: right. It was causing anxiety to, and it wasn't the kind of anxiety that like, oh, if I overcome this, it's gonna feel so good. It was, if I overcome this, I'm just gonna be bitter at my parents a little bit. Yeah. And we were like, no, this is not worth it. That's actually counterproductive to what we're actually trying to, for sure. [00:16:22] So,  [00:16:24] Angela: So good job. Thank you. Okay. Our next category or I don't know, next thing. Mm-hmm. is protect. Our next word is protect. Mm-hmm. , something that you are allowed to do is protect your child's free time. Mm. Mm-hmm. and or screen time . Yes. I think. Coming into winter. We're in winter in North America. [00:16:44] Right. So like coming into winter is a time I think when we instinctually just need a lot of downtime. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. At least I do. Okay.  [00:16:54] Maren: Especially in northern in the Northern  [00:16:57] Angela: states as I'm watching it. [00:17:00] Snow immensely outside right now. That's all I can think about.  [00:17:03] Maren: like I just wanna hibernate. Yes.  [00:17:05] Angela: I wanna hibernate. [00:17:06] Yes. And I feel like, so. We are not good at, and I say we like the collective we, and I'm talking about me as well. Mm-hmm. not good at is protecting my kids free time and downtime. Yeah. And I think that is so important and I wish I had done a better job of that when my kids were little. I did get better as they got older. [00:17:23] Oh yeah. But I think that downtime where their minds can wander, they can do the thing they're excited about, they can have a chance to explore new things that they maybe don't know if they're interested in. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. that only happens with. Huge blocks of free time. That's so true. You are allowed to protect that for your child and not cram in all the different subjects. [00:17:47] Exactly. Because are all those different subjects more important than free time? I don't know. I don't think so. Right. And are  [00:17:53] Maren: they actually getting learned when you're cramming them in anyway? Yeah. Is the learning actually happening? Mm-hmm. , you're [00:18:00] getting things done. But that does not guarantee any sort of like internal long term learning. [00:18:10] Angela: You're not. That's how I remember a an episode we did like three years ago or four years ago, I don't remember, was about like how we don't choose what our kids. Yes. Make meaning out of or like Yes. Yes. Like we can put the information in front of them. Yep. But we don't get to decide like what stays in their head or what they choose to make meaning from. [00:18:29] Right. That's like something that they're doing or something that happens within them. So just because you're cramming in six subjects or whatever, I'm, I'm not saying you're doing that, that's extreme, but whatever. That doesn't mean that they're learning all of that, but exactly what they're, they are learning when they're at, when they're, when they have. [00:18:46] They are learning because they're choosing what they're doing. They're excited about it, they're into it. They're motivated by it. We know for sure that they're learning that.  [00:18:57] Maren: Yep. They, it's the best kind of learning and yeah, it's [00:19:00] the most internal learning and long-term learning. And the only part of that that's tough for parents is that you probably aren't choosing the topic. [00:19:11] But let me tell you, so. Let me give you a peace of mind here. It's not always about the topic. , when it comes to learning the topic is almost irrelevant. It's the practice of learning. The habit of thinking. Mm-hmm. that is happening. Mm-hmm. during that free time. Mm-hmm. , it's the processing. Mm-hmm. , they are learning how to learn. [00:19:35] Mm-hmm. and they are loving it. So they're associating learning. Positive vibes. Positive feelings, for sure. For sure. And so they are going to continue that habit. Mm-hmm. of learning, of asking questions, of figuring out the answer. All these things, they are going to keep doing that the, their rest of their lives. [00:19:56] Mm-hmm. , if they have that time to do it now and they're having [00:20:00] positive experiences. Yes. So give yourself all the credit for all the learning you're you and your kids are doing in their  [00:20:08] Angela: free time. Give your kids all the credit. . Yeah. Yeah. I also, I know we briefly touched on it, I wanna say protect screen time and mm-hmm. [00:20:16] I know this is controversial, but I'm just gonna say like, I think. A lot of screen time is really, really valuable and really important. My kids learn a lot through screen time. Mm-hmm. now my kids are older, but I have to say, like my son, for example watches a lot of YouTube videos that are about, I don't even know the category. [00:20:35] Geography. Yeah. Yeah. I think geography. Yes. And like politics happening within the different, like Oh totally. Countries or whatever. This is what he does for hours. He does this for hours. That's amazing because I love to see it. I'm like, yes, yes, yes, you should do that. I am doing it wanting to squander that at all. [00:20:55] Cuz he is deep diving into a subject that is interesting to him and he is learning a [00:21:00] lot by doing those deep dives. Right. I have to  [00:21:02] Maren: say my son is doing the same thing really about you. Oh, okay. We should talk about that together. Yeah. Two of 'em, because they probably love to talk about that, so, yeah. [00:21:12] That's great. Yeah. And, and they can, you know, watch YouTube videos together. I think that's so, so great.  [00:21:19] Angela: Yeah. I mean, and I do not wanna stop that. I do not wanna put a limit on that and say, oh, you need to turn that up. I know sometimes we need to, but I like, I know that his excitement and passion for this is so great right now. [00:21:32] Yes. And I am not stopping. Totally.  [00:21:34] Maren: I also, I wanna piggyback on that. My oldest is learning all about the history of Iran right now. All on her, all on her own, and the, and all of the, the, just the you know, women's rights and all that stuff, just. Just doing all the research all the time on that and comes to us and tells us all these facts and things, and I'm like, that's amazing. [00:21:57] Had we  [00:21:57] Angela: limited  [00:21:59] Maren: mm-hmm. That [00:22:00] time, it just wouldn't happen. So, you know, it's just amazing. And then I have one child who's just doing art all the time. Mm-hmm. on their screen, on their iPad, just it's art. It's this art app. Pen, you  [00:22:12] Angela: know, like  [00:22:13] Maren: a mm-hmm. . Yeah. So it's, and it's amazing stuff. It's like amazing stuff. [00:22:19] Yeah. And I just think, well, why,  [00:22:21] Angela: why would I like squander that,  [00:22:22] Maren: that mm-hmm. excitement for that thing, so. All right. Number four is trust. Trust your gut. Trust your gut on things. Mm-hmm. Trust  [00:22:31] Angela: yourself. Mm-hmm. and trust your. Say too. Yes. Yeah. You are allowed to do that because you know, like we always say, you know, you yourself and your family the best, right? [00:22:41] Mm-hmm. , and we know as parents, you have a gut feeling of if a thing is working or not. If we need to do more of something, if we need to do less of something, if we should change something up, like where's the. The excitement for our kids, and you know that, you know that better than any expert, right? Or, you know, grandparent or like friend [00:23:00] who's a teacher. [00:23:00] You, you know that for your kids and your family. You need to trust that.  [00:23:05] Maren: Yes, and I think there is like a good. I think it's great to do a little research if you need to or whatever, do what you need to do, but also don't overdo that. Like I think about it when, you know when our kids are sick or something and then we Google something and then, you know, suddenly we think they, you know, have a terminal illness or something because of the Google results. [00:23:24] Yeah, yeah. It just brings us to this very scary place when really our gut instincts is like, you know, I should just, you know, sometimes we have to just listen to our gut and be like, I should just. My child to the doctor or not. Yeah. What it's usually the right thing. Whatever your gut is about that is probably the right thing. [00:23:43] Bring to the doctor or don't, or whatever, you know? Mm-hmm. . And I think, I think it, it's the same thing with homeschooling. Like, just trust your gut. What do you, what do you see and notice and experience with your kids?  [00:23:56] Angela: Mm-hmm. , you have so much  [00:23:58] Maren: information [00:24:00] that is intangible that nobody  [00:24:02] Angela: else will be able  [00:24:04] Maren: to. [00:24:05] Will never know those things. Mm-hmm. and only you do .  [00:24:09] Angela: Yeah. Trust it for sure. I love that. Mm-hmm. . Okay. Our last one is say yes, you have permission to say yes. I think a lot of times us included talk about saying no and taking stuff off of our plate. And we also want to tell you that you are allowed to add more things or say yes more often when your kids are asking you to, if that is what you want to do. [00:24:35] And if that works for you, you are allowed to do that. You're allowed to. You know, have a fun adventure. One day you're allowed to have a mental health day. You know, you're allowed to play games together that day. You're allowed to do whatever it is that is going to bring joy to your homeschool. [00:24:56] You're allowed to do that. You're allowed to go off for ice cream. You're allowed to get coffee in the morning. [00:25:00] Whatever you need to inject a little passion is what you should.  [00:25:05] Maren: Yes. Exactly. And a lot of times your kids will be the ones to let you know. There's something like, mom, can we do this today? [00:25:14] Mm-hmm. , I mean, I would listen to that. Mm-hmm. , maybe it's not a yes, but maybe there's something that you can, that you can say yes to around that. Mm-hmm. . But it might just be a little indicator that there's something that you could do. Yeah. For sure.  [00:25:28] Angela: All right. All right. We hope that was, That was kind of, this is like our favorite thing to talk about. [00:25:35] Yeah. We, we could talk forever. We had to coach ourselves to not talk so much. So. Yep. Exactly. Hope that was helpful for you. All right, let's move on to our loving this week. Okay. Marron what? Loving this week. All right.  [00:25:48] Maren: I'm loving a movie. It actually came out last. Holiday season, it's called Love Hard. [00:25:54] Okay. It's on Netflix. It is a pretty cheesy romcom, [00:26:00] actually but it is just, it's just such a great movie to sit down, curl up the blanket and enjoy brainless, basically. But it's so much fun, you know, it's like you don't have to think about it at all. You can just like eat it up like candy.  [00:26:15] Angela: Mm-hmm. . So this is about, I'm trying to remember, cause I did watch this last year and I loved it. [00:26:20] So if you're looking for a good holiday flick, this could be Yes. The, you know, like comfort flick you wanted? Yes. It, it  [00:26:28] Maren: just says it's an la Okay. I'll just read it quick. An LA girl, this is from imdb.com. An LA girl, unlucky in Love falls for an East coast guy on a dating app. Yeah. And decides to surprise him for the holidays. [00:26:40] Only to discover that she's  [00:26:42] Angela: been catfished. Yeah, she catfishing. Ok. Yeah.  [00:26:46] Maren: Yes. So it's very lighthearted and fun. And actually I just, I enjoyed it probably more this year than I did last year. I watched it again. Awesome. And I watched it with some of my kids. It does say TV A but [00:27:00] I would say it's probably more like PG 13, to be honest. [00:27:03] Yeah.  [00:27:03] Angela: It's like a PG 13. That's what it feels like to me. Yeah. There's no like, [00:27:07] Maren: No rated R stuff. No, I wouldn't, I don't think so. There's probably some swearing I would  [00:27:12] get.  [00:27:12] Angela: I think that's what it's, yeah. Yes. Alright. Thanks for sharing that. All right, Angela, what do you loving this week? I also have a movie, . Okay, great. Love it. This is called Glass Onion, A Knives Out story. Yay. [00:27:26] Yay. So this is basically knives. If you saw knives Out. Wow. Like two years ago,  [00:27:32] Maren: Martin, was that two? Oh, you know it's been three. It's been three. It was 2019. Wow.  [00:27:37] Angela: Yeah. Okay. Well if you haven't seen the first Knives out, you should definitely see that this is the second Knives out. We sat in the theater with family. [00:27:44] This is perfect. If you have, I would say teens or even. Between and up. Because it's like, it's a murder mystery, right? That's what it is. Mm-hmm. . But it's done in this a really fun, in innovative new way. It's also, okay. So [00:28:00] there's the only continuing character from the first Knives out movie is the Detective Daniel Craig. [00:28:06] He's the same. Okay. Otherwise they have a whole new cast of characters. Wow. And they're all. People, you know. Oh, you know, all kind of coming together. Playing kinda  [00:28:16] Maren: the last one  [00:28:16] Angela: too. A new funny. Yeah. These funny characters. These like unique characters. This Kate Hudson and Oh, fun. Yeah. You know, . Okay, I should have looked this up. [00:28:26] You know, the guy from Hamilton, the good singer. Okay. You  [00:28:30] Maren: know? Yes. Okay. I'm gonna look it up. Oh, Janelle, Moe. Yeah. Is in here. Leslie Oum Jr.  [00:28:37] Angela: Leslie oum Jr. [00:28:38] Thank you. Like I knew it term with an L. Yep. Okay. Anyway, and what I liked about it, which I think like could have been done poorly, but they did it right, was they talked about the pandemic. It's like said in the pandemic. That's great. And so there's like funny references to it that we can laugh about a little bit, little bit. [00:28:59] Right. Like  [00:28:59] Maren: [00:29:00] fun. Yes, exactly. And we can process through it. Yes.  [00:29:02] Angela: Yes. . So I actually, I liked that it was like, it was good to see that . Okay, great. So I think I think it's just a good time. And I heard it's coming to Netflix in like a few weeks  [00:29:13] Maren: very soon. Yeah. It was just out in theaters for a short time, so I'm glad you got to see it. [00:29:17] We really wanted to, but it didn't work out. So I'm really looking forward to this.  [00:29:21] Angela: All right. Thank you everybody for being here. [00:29:23] Thank you to our three sponsors, blossom and Ru Out School and Night Zoo Zookeeper. Be sure to check out their links in our show notes. [00:29:31] Maren: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Sizer and Marrin Goerss. . We are listeners supported to get extra content and the Back to School Summit free with your membership. Go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive booklist@homeschoolunrefined.com slash new. [00:29:55] You can find Mar on Instagram at unrefined and at Always [00:30:00] Learning with Mar. Find Angela at Unrefined. Angela. [00:30:04] 

Join us as we talk with Tanya Faisal all about ADHD and homeschool. We’ll talk about what ADHD actually is, what it can look like, and how we can support our kids. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors   We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings:   Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase   Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class    Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription  LTWs    Maren: Wakanda Forever   Angela: Bad Vibes Only by Nora McInerny   Connect with us!  Visit our website  Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren  Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com   Complete Episode Transcript   [00:00:10] Angela: hi, we are Maren and Angela of homeschool, unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters, together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling. We're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:29] At Homeschool Under You find, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and bipo voices. We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:51] Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at home or all your kids are in school, or somewhere in [00:01:00] between. Wherever you are in your journey, we're the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are your kids. This is episode 2 0 1, homeschool and ADHD with Tanya Feil. [00:01:13] Tonya and I talked about lots, the lots of things about adhd, what it actually is, what it looks like, and how we can support our kids with adhd. And then we'll end like we always do with our lt. Ws loving this. Before we get to that we wanted to just let everyone know about our December class in Patreon. [00:01:35] Mm-hmm. , it's gonna be called How We Winter Break. It's all about the importance of taking a winter break and our best tips for doing so. We're super excited about that because we really are passionate about it. It is, we love breaks, , we're passionate of all breaks. We are. It is Tuesday, December 6th at one o'clock. [00:01:53] If you join us on Patriot at the $10 level Central. Yeah. Yeah. One o'clock Central. Mm-hmm. . You will get information [00:02:00] and a Zoom link for that. Yes. , [00:02:03] we know finding a curriculum that meets your needs is tough, and that's why we're excited to partner with Blossom and Root. Blossom. And Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum, focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:02:20] Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschooling families around the globe since 2000. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022, volume one is available for purchase and volume two is available on presale. All profits from this history curriculum. A River of Voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. You can find [00:03:00] samples, scope, and sequences and information about each of their levels online at Blossom and Root dot. [00:03:07] You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your purchase. We're so happy to be partnering with Out School this season because they are our favorite way to outsource. We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. [00:03:30] They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their. Connect with diverse peers from around the world and take an active role in leading their learning out. [00:03:51] School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible [00:04:00] live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning free. Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined, and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with the code Unre. [00:04:15] Angela and I love using technology to teach specific skills, and that's one reason we are excited to introduce you tonight, zookeeper. Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may be just what you're looking for. [00:04:33] Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help to keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills. I, while having fun at the same. Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors and the super safe community pages where children [00:05:00] can work with each other and learn together. [00:05:02] If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. When you register it, you'll get a seven day risk free trial, as well as a huge 50% off annual subscription. That's a great deal if you ask. We are so excited to welcome back Tanya Fel, who is the creator of the YouTube channel project. [00:05:26] Happy Home. Tanya is a doctor and a lawyer turned homeschool parent who talks a lot about homeschool curriculum and adhd, and much more on her YouTube channel and on her social media. So please enjoy this conversation with Tanya. [00:05:42] Maren: Thank you so much, Tanya, for joining us today. We're so glad you're. It  [00:05:46] Tanya: is my pleasure to be back.  [00:05:49] Maren: Yes. All right. So do, maybe we should just start with a reminder. Maybe you can tell everyone a little bit about yourself, your story, and Sure. What [00:06:00] you are doing now.  [00:06:01] Tanya: So, I've been on social media, you know, in the world, the greater world for, I don't know, about seven years now. [00:06:08] I got on right as we started homeschooling, and I started my homeschool journey because my son was, you know, having trouble in kindergarten. And we had explored what could be causing that trouble and, you know, found out that it was adhd. And as all of that was happening, I thought it would be nice to find community. [00:06:28] And a lot of the information that I found initially was online. Mm-hmm. from moms who were going through it and. Sharing our story really was out of like gratitude to them. You know, it was like a, I realized how much that helped me and I thought, okay, so if I can share my experience, then it can help other people in the same way, you know, as a mom to mom, kind of, you know, parent to parent level. [00:06:51] Absolutely. Communication. So since then, I mean, I've continued the YouTube channel and the Instagram account under Project Happy Home, and we just talk [00:07:00] about all the day to day stuff. But also I focus on ADHD a little bit because mm-hmm. , that's really where our journey started. So  [00:07:08] Maren: did you know a lot about ADHD before you started, before you started homeschooling? [00:07:12] Or did you have knowledge of it or?  [00:07:14] Tanya: I come from a medical background, so I had knowledge of it, but I had no personal knowledge of adhd, you know, and it was, I, I think that even in the last five years, we've come a long way in like decreasing the stigma behind these different learning styles and learning abilities and learning, you know, Just modes of brain wiring. [00:07:36] You know, I think we've come a long way in like being able to be open about what challenges our kids are facing and what challenges we are facing, you know,  [00:07:45] Maren: as adults. Absolutely. Okay. So you, you started, you started really studying because you had a personal, your, your son, you realized, you realized he had adhd and so you did a lot of research and Yeah. [00:07:58] And, and [00:08:00] communication and communicating with other parents and things like  [00:08:03] Tanya: that. Yeah, because I, I mean, all the things I had read officially about adhd Yeah. Can one come from very different camps of thinking about whether you're gonna medicate or not medicate? Yeah. Whether it even exists or it doesn't exist. [00:08:16] But I found that the most helpful things that I learned were from parents. Mm-hmm. , you know, whether it was on like chat groups, on those official websites about adhd or whether it was like YouTube videos or Instagram accounts, because. I think that while professionals can have a lot of opinions about what is physiologically causing this and how we can treat it and everything, I think parents have the issue of like, so how do I get my child to Right. [00:08:44] Put their clothes in the hamper , right?  [00:08:46] Maren: Yes. You know? Yes. Okay. We're gonna get to that too. We're gonna get to things like that in just a minute. But first, let's maybe just start at the beginning and let's talk about what ADHD actually is, because it sometimes feels like [00:09:00] in intangible it's like, well, it's these behaviors. [00:09:02] Is it just these behaviors? That's what I think there's this perception, but what really  [00:09:07] Tanya: is it? So that's, I think, a hard question to nail down because there is disagreement about what it is if you're talking about it from a physiologic standpoint. Right? Yep. There's still a lot of medical disagreement about whether you actually have. [00:09:23] Physiologic changes in the brain or whether you don't. I find that amazing that that's still up idea. I do  [00:09:30] Maren: too. I do too. I think that's it. It's just amazing to me that there isn't more information out there or research or work on this right now. I think especially, especially now. But yeah, because it is you know, from my own study and research, and you can tell me what you've also learned because this is how we do it. [00:09:50] Like, we kind of just say, well, this is what I've learned and this is what you've learned and let's talk about it. But it's, for me, what I think about first is, is a [00:10:00] differently wired brain. Yeah. And especially. I think about the prefrontal cortex, which is at the, you know, the very front of your brain and how it's often less developed or and so it's possibly, it's possibly delayed. [00:10:14] And a lot of that prefrontal cortex part of your brain coincides with executive functioning emotional regulation kind of logic and understanding those, you know, understanding logic sometimes Yeah. And things like that. Is that what you have also found?  [00:10:29] Tanya: Yeah. I think that there's a lot of research indicate regardless of what is actually going on with neurotransmitters and the, you know, the way the brain is developing, maturing, yeah. [00:10:40] I think that they've definitely established a lack of working memory in these kids. That too. So, yes. Working memory, being that, exactly what you were talking about, that being able to take this short term knowledge, this short term instruction, this short term visual, and transforming it into a list of steps that [00:11:00] you mm-hmm. [00:11:00] you know mm-hmm. , if this, then all of these things, that connection and that has a lot to do with prefrontal cortex and how it connects to all of your other lobes, really. Right, right, right. So, I think regardless of what's going on, I think we should focus as parents on like, how does that manifest for us in our kids? [00:11:18] Like, what is actually happening? Because, like you said, we can ignore, you know, we can talk about the behaviors like the, the fidgeting or the lack of attention, and sort of forget about all the other pieces that come with that lack of working memory. Like, you know, the reaction times being slowed to someone's facial expression, the inability to realize that you've missed a step. [00:11:40] You know, in what you were supposed to do next then. And just all of these things that can be perceived as disrespectful and lazy and, you know, irresponsible. Mm-hmm. just being actual, you know, brain wiring like issues, right?  [00:11:56] Maren: Yes, yes. So it, yes, that has, that [00:12:00] has helped me a lot over the past few years to understand that it is, it is to me quite physiological. [00:12:07] Mm-hmm. Instead of choices, bad choices. Yeah. Or, or just a tendency to not be able to do things you don't wanna do. Like you have to step it up, you know? Yeah. And so it's much easier to understand when it is just, it, it, it does to me seem like now a much more physiological and, and real tangible thing. [00:12:27] Tanya: I think people should realize it. Like the, you know, it is a disability that if you are an adult and in a workplace and you can, you know, apply for accommodations. So we all hesitate to use the word disability, but I think it's important to realize that like medically and psychologically speaking, like it has qualified itself to receive help for adults. [00:12:51] You know, like people who are functioning, like working members of society. And I think that that is important because yes, labels matter, but [00:13:00] I think it's important because it's a real thing. The thing that offends me the most is when people say that ADHD isn't real. Yes. And that it's just behavioral and just choices. [00:13:10] And I think. To know that it's recognized officially by people who give out money , you know, to, like, that's a hard, a hard call for the government, you know, like, I think that that's important to realize that that is, it has passed that bar, that discussion should be over.  [00:13:25] Maren: Yes, absolutely. Yep. You are so right. [00:13:27] But, and I do think I get why it feels like, like I said, it does feel a little bit intangible, and I think sometimes that is, because it looks so different for everyone too. So it might not necessarily be just a, a, you know, not being able to complete a task or something. It might, like you said, might not, it might be more working memory not being able to remember or, you know, memorize things that you need to memorize, or it might be, you know, emotional dysregulation or things like that. [00:13:58] So it's sometimes [00:14:00] hard to pinpoint like, oh, this person definitely has ADHD because they have, they do this, this, and this, because it, you know, it can look so different. But also that's why probably getting a test is really, is really important. Yeah. So that you can, you can identify it and move forward. [00:14:17] Yeah. So I  [00:14:18] Tanya: was 95% sure that my childhood had ADHD when I took them in for their very expensive testing. Exactly. It wasn't covered by insurance . Don't get me started. Yeah. And, and it was a huge relief to me to know like, that he met these criteria and it wasn't just me thinking, you know, things about his behavior and stuff and just guessing. [00:14:42] Even as somebody with a medical background, I wanted to know exactly to the best of our ability. What was going on so that I could hone like how we addressed him and how we lived with him and, you know, how we as parents like adjusted our behavior to best help him. [00:15:00] Yes. I, I,  [00:15:02] Maren: I agree with you a hundred percent. [00:15:03] It felt so good for me too. I have kids with ADHD and since then I've been tested and, and have ADHD too. And so also, even though I knew same with you, probably 95% sure this is adhd it does feel validating. And also there's official things that can happen now too. Like you said. There are there are accommodations that can happen now for sure. [00:15:27] And so I feel Yeah, I I I am so glad we all got tested. So, and, but you're right. It is, it is really expensive and I think that that is something that I really hope changes in the future. Yeah. For people for sure. So what are, we've talked about a lot of the maybe things that are kind of hard for eight year, or maybe we call 'em symptoms or things that you see that make that maybe challenges for people with adhd. [00:15:54] What are some of the strengths that you've seen in anyone with adhd, maybe your son [00:16:00] or  [00:16:00] Tanya: anybody else? I think, you know, like you were saying, the, the weaknesses are the things that people pick up on the first. And just to go over, if anybody wants to know a list of those, it's easy to find online, but a lot of the things people notice first are in school, like when a child first has to sit on the line and they have issues sitting on the line, literally, and also paying attention and following directions, completing activities a. [00:16:24] Behavior and talking that can be deemed disrespectful. Mm-hmm. , I think if you flip a lot of that behavior on its head though, what it comes from is their strengths. Yes. Which is, you know, not wanting to be on the line for a very long time and to want to be creating and producing and doing things and actively learning. [00:16:43] And then, you know, in terms of the disrespect and stuff, sometimes it's just kids being really questioning a lot of things or questioning, not we say questioning authority, but I think sometimes they're just literally questioning the direction, like without any disrespect intended. You know, they are truly wondering [00:17:00] like, why is this the choice that you've made in this situation? [00:17:02] Like, why do I have to do it first and not second? Why do I have to stop this and do this now? And I think sometimes when kids with ADHD appear disrespectful, they're actually just being critical thinkers, you know? Really. Absolutely.  [00:17:15] Maren: Yep. And they're, and they don't,  [00:17:17] Tanya: Gauge that your face is showing irritation quickly enough to re reroute their next question. [00:17:26] Yeah. You know, in a school environment and stuff, I think sometimes when you ask the first question, everyone can be like, okay, maybe you're just asking, but then they ask another one and another one. That seems equally disrespectful. But I don't think that's it. I think that's the reaction time thing coming in where they're not reading your face for disapproval, they're just going on with their next thought. [00:17:44] Maren: Well, and, and I also think Kids with ad don't wanna just say kids, people with adhd can be highly motivated when they connect their big why to what they're doing. Exactly. And so I think for them it's like I, a child might just be [00:18:00] saying, I really need this information or order for me to move forward. [00:18:04] Tanya: Exactly. There're actually telling you what they need. They're telling you what they need. They're trying to be, I think in one way it's easier to look at it as they're trying to be respectful. They're trying to find the reason that gets them there. They search child. I think that, yeah, no child wants to be yelled at, even if they have this prior knowledge, like, yes, I get yelled at a lot and kids with ADHD get reprimanded so much more than kids without, and that's like a heartbreaking number of times, more. [00:18:32] You know, and I'm not gonna call myself perfect at all. I definitely will be impatient with certain things because it's a continuous kind of answering of the question. You're not gonna have, as a parent of a child with adhd. You're never going to be in the situation where I just say things the first time and my children just [00:18:49] You know, like, duck legs go in a And that's something, you know, to get used to. I always say that the most important thing with your kids, whether they have ADHD or not, right? Is that relationship, like [00:19:00] Absolutely. Do they feel when they look at you, and what do you feel when you look at them? Like, is it like this waiting for like disapproval? [00:19:07] Waiting for like disobedience mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Or is it assuming the best of them? Like, I think of all the things I've ever come up with for myself, you know, how we come up with these things, these coping things. I came up with this mnemonic ABC. And so the A is just always ask the first time, like, don't expect them to not be doing it or not have done it, or not be listening. [00:19:31] Like don't yell the first time. You know, don't be annoyed the first time. Just ask like you would ask a friend or anything. And I always think when you ask, try to like touch them or really make sure that they're listening. Like they are not kids who are gonna respond well when you shout from, you know, downstairs to upstairs and expect them to like, just get it together. [00:19:51] Definit. So the A is just always ask. Mm-hmm. and ask like a nice person, you, yourself, you know? Right, right. And then the second one is [00:20:00] the B is just believe. Believe when you're asking that this is going to happen this time. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. like as best as you can, like believe that they have the best of intentions and you do. [00:20:10] And we're gonna meet there, you know, and it might not happen the first time you ask or the second or the third, but you have to believe that will continue to believe. You have to. Yeah. You have to believe that they want to work with you. They want to be like the best they can be because they do like they do. [00:20:26] Absolutely. The C for me is always chuck it if it doesn't work, you know, or if you have a negative interaction or like you messed up and said things you didn't mean, or they just, you know, melted down and had things come outta their mouth that they don't mean or whatever. Just chuck it. Like don't carry it with you into the next thing that you have to do together. [00:20:48] And the next thing and the next thing because. It's in the end a small thing. Like you shouldn't feel horrible about yourself because you had a meltdown, because it's hard to be the parent of [00:21:00] any neuro atypical kid. It is. Absolutely. Yep. And then give yourself  [00:21:04] Maren: credit for  [00:21:04] Tanya: that. Yeah. And give yourself some grace. [00:21:07] It's so much easier to give them grace when you allow yourself some,  [00:21:10] Maren: you know, . Absolutely. Yep. So, yes, absolutely. And I was gonna say something about, oh yes, this I love the abc and Always Ask is so great because I think what can happen, especially with my children with adhd, messes happen all the time. I mean, I have mm-hmm. [00:21:27] You know, experiments are going on all the time. White because it's tactile, it is interest led. It is not, you know there's not necessarily a plan at a time, it's just things are happening and question. I think one of the strengths of someone with ADHD is they are often very inquisitive and eager to find answers, eager to find answers. [00:21:52] And so I think that's happening a lot in our house. And so that does create masses sometimes. And also there's a lot of creativity mm-hmm. Around [00:22:00] people with adhd. And so I think there's, you know, there's our projects everywhere too and things like that. And so to always ask to clean, to, you know, to, let's clean this up. [00:22:09] Could we clean this up now? Is great because when it happens a lot, sometimes my first reaction is, oh my goodness, again. Oh my goodness. And so I think this is really great to like just start. With Always ask . Yeah. You don't have to elevate it to, you know, level seven right away. Let's start with one. [00:22:31] You know, let's just stay, let's stay where, let's stay down there in the lower levels of, you know, your emotions because I think we know this is gonna happen and, and, and there it's because of the strengths. It's because of the strengths. Yeah. And then I also think like my, my kids' strengths are definitely in the beginning of those projects. [00:22:49] Mm-hmm. . And the strength is not in the cleaning up of those projects. Right. That still needs to happen, of course. And we need to build that skill and practice [00:23:00] it and continue to work on it. But my expectation should not necessarily be that they're gonna be as good at cleaning up as they are at starting this really interesting project. [00:23:13] Right. That's, you know, that's probably just not realistic. And so if my expectation is they get that good at cleaning up, I'm going to forever be frustrated.  [00:23:22] Tanya: Exactly. Yeah. And I think it's important to talk to them, especially as they get older, but really even as youngest five and six about mm-hmm. [00:23:30] how do they think you should get there? Like if you have a goal, like if they did this big invention box project and now you have like painter tape and paint cardboard pieces and everything scattered everywhere and you're feeling your blood start to like boil a little, you know, cuz you're at the end of a long day or whatever and you have to do other things. [00:23:48] I still think it's important to like sit with them and be like, okay, so like I think you can say what your needs are. Like I need this to be cleaned up. Yes. So that I can feel okay. Yes. You know, so that we can [00:24:00] get through everything and do other things in this living room space. And ask them though, cuz they are so creative, right. [00:24:08] Like, what do you think would be the best way that we could do this? Or what do you think would be the fastest way? Or do you think if we like, you know, set a timer, like who could like finish their half of the room fastest? And honestly, that makes it fun for them and for you. Like it allows you to like, you know, not be this ogre who's always upset. [00:24:27] You know, like it allows you to just be in it with them. Like, this is a problem, but we're gonna do this like in a together, like year going to be together when we like figure this out. We're  [00:24:38] Maren: in this together. It's not just you clean this up, this is your issue. Yeah. This is us together where it is a team. [00:24:44] Right. And then another thing that, you know, I was thinking of when you were, when you were just saying that Tanya, is that I've often like maybe started with let's, can you. At, you know, when they were much younger, they could help with a few things cleaning up, not the whole [00:25:00] cleanup. That's overwhelming. [00:25:01] It would deter them from ever doing a project again. Mm-hmm. , if they had to do the whole thing even with me. So it was like they could do 10%, 20% of it or whatever. And we have worked up over the years mm-hmm. For that, I don't know the, the stamina. To, to clean up a project or stamina to do anything that is of low interest to them. [00:25:25] Exactly, yes. That it just, we have to build that up. It can't be something that they just take on a hundred percent right away. Mm-hmm. Without I think almost like some scaffolding or .  [00:25:36] Tanya: Yeah. It's a, this guideposts along the way like this is that if the, the like, you know, first this, then this is tough. [00:25:44] That is that working memory piece, you know, it is then this, like, this happens and this happens and it hasn't, and when they're little like charts help and visuals and stuff, I think when they're older, absolutely. . I always have the high five, I think I talked about this last time, where everybody's, you know, responsible for five things before they see me in the [00:26:00] morning and you get a high five. [00:26:02] I'm just like high five. And that's all I say. Instead of saying, did you do this? Did you do this? Did you do this? You know, like they know what the five are. Everybody has it listed on their bathroom mirror and like you just, that's great. And you start the day with a high five, which I think is really nice. [00:26:16] And if they haven't done it, you haven't used any negative words to show them that you haven't, you just ask like high five. And then if they can't, they're like, they just run back up, you know? Which is really not, you know, negative, you know, it's like them having a code word almost.  [00:26:34] Maren: It's a code. I love that. [00:26:35] It's a code word. Instead of saying, oh, go back and brush your teeth. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah, because all kids get told what to do a lot just innately. Like whether we want that to happen or not, it just is. That's the way, that's the way it is. Kids. Get told what to do a lot. Someone with adhd maybe even more because they, they, you know, We have to repeat things a lot or, you know, they yet, like, [00:27:00] they forget or they get off task or they don't wanna do it or things like that. [00:27:03] So it just can multiply and multiply and it could be a day full of telling a child what to do. And so I love that the, as much as we can minimize that the better. And so if there's something written down that is so great because they do need the reminders. They will not remember five things Yeah. [00:27:20] In their brain, but they, they will remember to go look at the five things. Mm-hmm. . So anything that can be automated. Like that is so, so helpful. And things  [00:27:31] Tanya: like, you know, I feel like the bane of my existence is socks in general. Every time I bring up socks, I'm like, how many problems can I have with socks? [00:27:38] Mm-hmm. . But beyond them being left everywhere, one of our issues was getting out of the door and always having people who had not put their socks on. And then having this whole thing of like, me seeing they were putting sneakers on without socks and being like, take off your sneakers and go put socks on them. [00:27:52] And so now I just keep a basket of socks. Oh, that's great. Right there of everybody's size. And every time we do the [00:28:00] laundry, I just like toss a sock in there, you know, because that way I, we've automated this step, so, okay. I've established people have trouble remembering their socks. Mm-hmm. . And so now the socks are always there. [00:28:11] Now that whole thing is eliminated. Yes. It took the barest amount of effort on my part. And honestly, if they grow up and they still have an issue remembering socks, hopefully they remember to do this. Exactly. And then it solves the problem, you know? Yes. I find like a lot of people will say like, well, how long are you gonna be around and you can't do all these things for them. [00:28:30] And I'm like, I'm teaching them how best to do it for themselves too.  [00:28:35] Maren: You know, they can absolutely do this their whole lives. Yes.  [00:28:38] Tanya: They, they can absolutely have a post-it with five things on their bathroom mirror for the rest of their  [00:28:42] Maren: life. Yes. They had a problem. Yes, exactly. And we have to think outside the box on that, because I think we've been kind of trained. [00:28:49] We do. We just do life this way. This is what, this is what people do. People don't have baskets of socks in their, you know, in their joy. But they can Why, why can't they? And so I [00:29:00] think that's, I mean, you could call that almost an accommodation, but I, I don't even necessarily like the word accommodation cuz it's, it seems like you're, oops, sorry. [00:29:09] You're making an exception for you know, For a difference or something. But I think this is just like we all, we can all do things. Yes. It's a life hack. It's just we all do things that make our lives easier. Yeah. You know, we put our coffee right next to the coffee pot so we, you know, we don't have to walk across the kitchen to go get our coffee in the morning. [00:29:30] And so like, we're just making life easier in other ways that maybe, maybe someone else hasn't thought of before. And I think that is really  [00:29:38] Tanya: great. Once upon a time we didn't have room closets, but now we do to keep the broom there where we will be able to get it easily. I mean, it's the same thing. And we have a lot of hangups about making life easier. [00:29:50] We really do. Like I. I mean, even as adults, people are like, Ugh. Like, do you really need that extra thing or do you really need that? Like, is that, I'm like, why are you [00:30:00] so upset that someone has a special way of cleaning baseboards? Yes. Like if you make them clean their baseboards, hurray, you know, like this extra tool or whatever, whatever it is that makes you a little bit less stressed as you live life, I think. [00:30:12] Yes. No one should denigrate that. No,  [00:30:15] Maren: no kidding. I, I, I can't even agree with you more. I think you're so right and it also just takes away the shame of, of what a lot of kids might feel having adhd. It just takes away that shame. Like instead of saying like, I can't even go get the right socks at the right time. [00:30:33] I can't even do that. That can feel really bad for. . But really it's, it takes away that whole issue. It's like not even an issue anymore. And I think we can, we can translate that into homeschool in so many ways too. Mm-hmm. . I do like, I wanna think about kids when they can't sit still, like you talked about, they can't like sit on the line, but at homeschool it might be they can't sit on the couch, they can't sit, sit at the kitchen table or whatever. [00:30:56] But I do wanna encourage you that if you have a child like that, even if they [00:31:00] haven't been diagnosed with adhd, maybe they don't even have adhd. A, a child who can't sit still sometimes. They are so their brains are going, so, you know, they're, they're thinking about a million things. Maybe they're even so excited about whatever's going on. [00:31:16] And their reaction to that is moving around. So sometimes that's the case. But then also sometimes moving around is what is needed in order for their brain to focus. Yeah. So it could be, you know, one or the other. And so I think that's an a life hack for homeschool, for homeschoolers is to just think about how. [00:31:41] We don't all have to be doing homeschool the same way either. Just like we don't always have to have our socks and our drawers. We don't always have to do the plan that we, that we originally had for homeschooling our child is our children might be telling us they need something else. [00:32:00] Yeah. And so that's, it's not a bad thing. [00:32:02] It's actually great. It's great. I think it's, you're figuring out you're, yeah. I  [00:32:07] Tanya: think one thing that's good about social media is that we have so much access to different people's experiences. Yes. But another thing on the flip side is that it's bad. Right. Particularly when it's like a visual format like Instagram mm-hmm. [00:32:17] Mm-hmm. where so many things can look so beautiful. . Yeah. And so exactly, you know, little House on the Prairie and all of this stuff. And I think that it can make us feel bad about, about the socks in the hallway or whatever we're doing. Yes. That is working for us maybe, but not picture friendly. And you know, people have different experiences, like people have different family dynamics and different ages in their homeschool. [00:32:43] There's so many things. Mm-hmm. beyond ADHD or any neuro divergence that makes it different. I think I parent my kids pretty much the same. Mm-hmm. because of my eldest having adhd. Like I think I'm much better at being nice , honestly, like that's the word, because [00:33:00] my eldest has adhd. Like, I think, yeah, I had expectations for what motherhood would be like and what my children would be like and what my house would be like. [00:33:07] Mm-hmm. that are wildly different from what has happened. And in many ways it's been for the good, you know? Yes. Like, because it's have my son having ADHD has taught me that, you know, one, the way I'm perceiving a situation is not the same as the way someone else is perceiving the situation. Yes. That is very clearly brought home. [00:33:30] So true. And. That I can like pause and try to meet them in a, in a helpful way, in a non judgey way. Like I really try hard, I think I used to say things like, you always, you know, you always don't, or you always do this negative thing would follow. And that I have, I, I still doing things wrong, but that I don't say anymore ever to anybody. [00:33:53] Right, right. Because I think that it's really important to tell them, you know, like, we [00:34:00] are growing all of us together. I always tell my son, I'm exactly as old a mom as you are a kid. Like, so think of us in the same way though, right? Like, I am learning these things and so are you and we are all moving forward together. [00:34:13] I think we can all say that we can get better at things without saying that there's any perfect place to get to or that we're terrible where we are, you know? Yes. I think. That's important to know. Yeah.  [00:34:25] Maren: Definitely. And I, I always, I always think what I'm doing for my kids who are neuro divergent, it's actually good for everyone and vice versa. [00:34:37] What we're doing for everyone should be good for the person who's neuro divergent too. So I think we need to also just, I think we've kind of narrowed our idea of maybe expectations and the way we even, I don't know, communicate with each other or treat each other that I think can be much more inclusive. [00:34:56] And thanks to our neuro divergent, you know, the people, [00:35:00] the neuro divergent people in this world who's like, they're helping us understand even just how to, how to , I don't know, be better communicators with everyone. Yeah. Yeah. So I think yeah,  [00:35:14] Tanya: no, I wanted to say like, the one thing I would mention too is one reality of being a parent of someone with ADHD is that, you know, they will take negative comments so much harder Yes. [00:35:26] Than, and your typical child would, and that. As a parent, because I know, I, I know that I have said things that I would take back if I could, and I have responded in ways that I could take back if I could. And I have seen how much that affected my kid and then me responding in a way that was even more frustrated because I felt like he shouldn't have had that response. [00:35:53] Like it shouldn't be this extreme that I said this negative thing. And so it was like piling like one negative thing on top of another, like [00:36:00] the frustration with the initial event or whatever that happened. And then my frustration with his response and I think really learning about how Neuro atypical kids, particularly with adhd, can have this rejection sensitivity dysphoria. [00:36:15] Yes. This, this incredible feeling of pain and just anguish really about being reprimanded. Yep. Is, is really important to acknowledge and learn about. And I think when we realize how harmful some of the things we do can be caring parents, you know, which most of us are. Yep. It really shifts you. Yes. You know, like always remembering that shifts my responses into like a more even keeled response. [00:36:43] Maren: I think that is so important to remember. I was gonna just ask you about R S D or rejections sensitivity dysphoria because I think it is real . It is very real. And I think that for many reasons it's very real. And one of those would be that there's just a lot [00:37:00] of, you know just culturally. There is a lot of rejection for, for a child who, you know, learns differently. [00:37:09] And so there is this sensitivity to it towards it, and I think their brains are also geared towards that sensitivity too. And so, and I've seen that a lot in our house and I do think, like, it's, it's amazing how I have always thought of myself as being very encouraging, very positive, you know accepting and everything and have realized I have so much. [00:37:33] I mean, there are just so many opportunities to continue to get better at that . Even things that I never would've thought were in the realm of any kind of criticism they actually can be interpreted that way. Yeah. And so yeah, it's important.  [00:37:53] Tanya: They have documented like the response time too for ADHD kids. [00:37:57] Mm-hmm. is a little bit just milliseconds, [00:38:00] but like a little bit slower in terms of recognizing someone's facial expression and like responding appropriately. Yeah. And I think even that we don't realize, right, when we say something, and it might be neutral, but we say it with like a tightness in our tone or in a in our face, whereas our neurotypical child might immediately see that in like SCADA and do whatever we were saying. [00:38:20] Sure. The, you know, child with ADHD might just not have realized that we're serious in this moment and that you were close to reaching your limit for the day or anything like that, you know? So, you know, I think recognizing that difference Yes. Yes. Is so important in terms of being compassionate about, you know, how long it might have taken them to like move forward with the task you were asking them to do or whatever. [00:38:47] Maren: Yes. And I wonder if that, does that have anything to do? I'm just putting this together. Like, I know it's very, can be very difficult for someone with ADHD to transition, transition to different tasks. So it's [00:39:00] like this to this, like their brain is sometimes hyper focused on something. And so, and to be able to transition to something it can be quite difficult. [00:39:09] And so I wonder if sometimes that's the reasoning for that. There's just like, they're thinking of this thing and it, and it's really hard to change to the next thing, even if it's a, a, I don't know, a face, A face that they aren't noticing. Yeah. Yeah, so, but we, so yes, and we also need to be very conscious of that, like, transitions can be very difficult for for our ADHD kids too. [00:39:32] Like we, I know you talked well yes, you were talking about it's really hard for them to focus or sit down sometimes, but also sometimes our kids can get very focused, and this is when they're really into something. Their brain is, you know, kind of in this flow state almost when they're interested in what they're learning about. [00:39:52] And so I think when, well when we're homeschooling, I think this is a great gift because your kids are [00:40:00] gonna learn so much about the things that they're interested in. Yes. Like you can't really stop it from happening , but also you have to be very aware of Dere that Dere relaying. Yes. Yes. And giving them lots of support at the end of that time. [00:40:19] When it's time to move on to something else, giving them lots of you know, time to prepare for a change in what's gonna happen next. And then, yeah. So yeah.  [00:40:30] Tanya: People when they come to my house always make fun of me because I have the Alexa timers on everything. Yeah. So many things, you know, like half an hour before something, it'll be like, in 30 minutes we're gonna have our piano. [00:40:40] Listen in 15 minutes we're gonna have our, and, and for us that works. Some people like timers, you know, I've heard people tell me when they have a timer, their kid kind of freaks out. And I'm like, you should stick with timers in whatever way works for you. But I promise you there will be one that has to. [00:40:58] Has to be you. Yes. They might not like [00:41:00] seeing a visual timer, but they might like hearing that the time is coming. You know, they might not like having, I don't know, alarm go off, but they might like a touch on the shoulder being like, you know, we have about five minutes left. There's all these different things you can do. [00:41:14] Yes. But I think knowing how the, you know, that time is passing is important because time blindness is a real issue. It's real. Yes. Not realizing that time is passing when you're having a good time and not realizing that this time will pass when something not so entertaining is happening. It's frustration of being stuck somewhere. [00:41:35] Can be very high kids, adhd,  [00:41:38] Maren: very frustrating. It can be the ultimate frustration. Absolutely. I've also heard that even having a, an analog clock on the wall can be very helpful just visually to see the minutes moving. Yeah. Can be very helpful. We've never really relied on that as much, but I know some people just absolutely depend on that, on the visual. [00:41:58] So anyway, [00:42:00] and I know there's,  [00:42:00] Tanya: I have a different timer for each of them. That's the visual one. Nice. The kind where, you know, you turn the dial and it shows in red how much time is left, and then it just keeps going down. But I have a different one for each of them because when we first started to do it, and I tried to say like, okay, everyone's gonna work on math for 30 minutes. [00:42:18] The stress level for all the different children was very different. Yeah. Yeah. And it was hard to kind of manage nowadays, like I, I truly let them choose what they're working on at any given time usually. Sure. Like if we're at seat work, you can choose whatever seat work you have for the week. Yeah. [00:42:31] And go forth and conquer. I mean, if you feel like doing math all day, great. If you feel like doing English all day, I am not going to micromanage. Yeah. That's amazing. Having to do eight subjects a day. Yes. But I think that each of them having their own, I just say like, you know, use your timer to help you. [00:42:46] That's, and I don't use them anymore myself, like with them. Mm-hmm. , I'm like, how long do you think this should take you? Is a good question. And then they can say like, I think it'll take 20 minutes. I think it'll take 10. And I'll be like, try, you [00:43:00] know, try and see if you can do it instead of like, definitely get it done. [00:43:03] And if it goes off, I always remind them like, okay, well, you know, you can set it again for the same amount of time if you think you didn't get far, or you can set it for like two minutes and see if you can wrap it up, you know, and then it becomes, Like a challenge, not so boring and not so not such a disappointment to themselves, you know, that they didn't finish in time. [00:43:23] It's like, it's fine. It's totally your timer, like you use it however you  [00:43:28] Maren: want. That's so, that's so, so empowering, and it goes back to your, oh, you know, believe, believe in your, in your kids. And if they say, this is what I think I can do it in, then, you know, give them that power and, and let them try it. [00:43:42] Another thing that I've, I've definitely noticed with kids with ADHD and people including myself, is trying things is sometimes the best learning. I mean mm-hmm. , it's so powerful to put that prac, you know, the trying it's almost like, it's almost like an [00:44:00] experiment and you find out yourself firsthand if something worked or. [00:44:04] It doesn't matter how many people tell you you know, the best practice or the best way to do this, you just have to try it and make lots of mistakes. And and sometimes that's just it. It can look like a lot of tough life lessons. Mm-hmm. . But I would never call any of them fail failures. . It's just really moving forward in a, in it's moving forward in a different direction and learning which way works best for you. [00:44:30] And, and, and then it's the most effective way because you've learned this path is the way that works. Because I know I've experienced all the other 10 ways and those didn't work, and now I absolutely a hundred percent no. This is the way I wanna go with full confidence. And so I think kids with ADHD when they're given that, like you just gave 'em that opportunity to like make those choices. [00:44:51] It might not look like a success that day, but I would a hundred percent call it, you know, it a success because they've figured out what doesn't [00:45:00] work or what does work. I mean, who knows? You never know. Yeah.  [00:45:04] Tanya: One of the most helpful things recently has been we've been putting Pomodoro timers up on the tv. [00:45:09] Awesome. YouTube on my phone you can search Pomodoro timer. The whole concept is that, you know, you work for a certain amount of time and you take a break and then you work for a certain amount of time, take a break, and you do a couple cycles of like 25 5 or you know, 30 10 and then you take a big long break. [00:45:23] And I think my kids have had so much fun picking the to Pomo do timer for the day. Like some of them will have like a color move across the TV screen as you get to completion. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , some of them will have a wheel. Some of them will just have, you know, as smr, a Hogwarts study room or whatever. [00:45:37] Yes. And they love it. And they've named the different Pomo do timers. So some of them are like Simon and Fred and I don't know how, they're just like, graphics so great, but like everything you can do to make it seem like you are. Team environment with them. And yes, the things that are giving us difficulty don't necessarily have to be not fun. [00:45:58] You know, maybe [00:46:00] there's people who never need a Pomo door timer and they just know how to work for an hour time. Sure, sure. None of us in our house are those people. No. And so this is like a really fun thing. You know, you start the day and you're like, what are we gonna like watch today? Like, you know, who's the character? [00:46:14] What sound are we gonna be in? Are we gonna be in this slithering room? Are we gonna be in a Hufflepuff room? And so you have this easy but productive way to like, you know, help yourself along in like a way. And I think that's important forever, right? Yeah. For our adult life too. I mean, the things we need help with don't all have to be boring and dull and like,  [00:46:37] Maren: Yes. [00:46:38] And I've used, I've actually used a Pomodoro app like that too, as kind of, I kind of think of it as a body double too, which is a lot of ADHD years. Talk about having a body double, just meaning there's somebody could be somebody, something could be a dog, it could be any pet that's near you. That just, it, it's almost just like a [00:47:00] companion a little bit mm-hmm. [00:47:02] and helps you get your work done. And there's just something about that. I, you know, I often like to work in the same room with my dog and it's just because, I don't know. I can, I feel like I can concentrate more. And this is a real thing for people with adhd and I think those Pomodoro apps are sometimes I put on, oh, we put on YouTube you know, chill hop and it's just a raccoon, you know, going for a walk around a lake and there's music and  [00:47:26] Tanya: the love. [00:47:27] That one. I never thought about it in the way you're describing that. It's like a companion, but it totally is. It is.  [00:47:32] Maren: It is.  [00:47:33] Tanya: Yeah. It's like having a friend with you. Like I always tell my kids, and again, this is because my son, like always be your own best friend. Like, if you would never beat up your friend verbally, you know, for a mistake they made really, for almost any mistake. [00:47:47] And I think that's the way it should be for our own self-talk. You know? So for them, I'm always like, when we melt down, when we have a negative thing happen mm-hmm. , like, who's responsible for that? We are ourselves, like we are in control of [00:48:00] ourselves. When you melt down, you're in control of that. When I melt down, I'm in control of that, but. [00:48:04] We shouldn't then beat ourselves up for it. Yeah. Because we should be our own best friend. We should say like, Hey, that did not go well . Right. Well, like, it's okay. Like, you know, you are loved, you are with your people. It's going to be okay. You love them, you're a good person. Like it's fine. You know? Yeah. [00:48:23] Like nothing is the end of the world. And I think sometimes, especially when we first come into parenting a child with adhd and you first experience this pushback. Mm-hmm. , you can feel like it's the end of the world. You can feel like, look at all these other people at the park whose kids are just like doing the things and like coming when called and like not throwing a fit because the swings are occupied or whatever. [00:48:45] And I think really learning to understand that it's not the end of the world. That this is just, you know, an opportunity to honestly be so much closer to your kids. It really is like, Oh,  [00:48:58] Maren: totally. I, [00:49:00] I, I can't agree with you more. And I do think, like, I do remember that feeling, especially when our, our oldest was diagnosed with adhd. [00:49:07] It was our first, you know, experience in the family with the diagnosis. And the psychologist just said, you know, she's probably never gonna, you know, when she gets changed at a restaurant or, you know, at a store is not gonna be able to count it right then and there and make sure it's the right amount because it's just, you know, it's too, it's too fast. [00:49:24] And, you know, it's just the, the whole environment is, is too stimulating. And it would just be, it, it's overwhelming at that point to like count the change. Right. And I just thought, oh no, in my mind just, just despair. But. I now think , oh my goodness, what a small price to pay for the brilliance of that ADHD mind in our family, and the contribution this amazing human is bringing to the world and continues and will continue to bring to the world. [00:49:59] I'm just like [00:50:00] so grateful for that. And I know, I, I just think kids with ADHD minds just are so brilliant, creative, innovative I think they're gonna be the change makers of the world. They're  [00:50:14] Tanya: often so friendly. Yes. They're so willing in spite of all of the, the negative kind of comments and reprimands and things. [00:50:23] They're so willing to have a good time. I think. Yes. You know? Yeah. On for sure. Larger scale. I, in our little co-op group, we have kids of all different, A small little group, but one of the moms in my group and a mom who has I think, incredibly well behaved children, you know? Mm-hmm. has four kids who are lovely little boys, and she did me like an enormous kindness because one day she came up and said, you know, I love seeing how Gabriel, who's so much older than the rest, you know? [00:50:48] Mm-hmm. definitely just like brings them like an idea, like there's a game, you're in an open field, there's nothing to do, but like, there's a game. There's a whole like adventure [00:51:00] planned, you know? It's always spontaneous and it's always something that engages everyone and involves people and. I see that so often with other kids, with adhd, like his friends, they come up with so many, you know, like interesting things. [00:51:13] Yeah. Like not the usual, we're never going on just a bike ride. We're never just, you know, at the park there's always like some sort of LA adventure going  [00:51:21] Maren: on . Exactly. Yeah. They may not sit for the lesson that you had in your mind that thought you thought were was gonna be this great, you know, experience. [00:51:30] But then later on the day they might come up with this great discussion topic that you have for like 45 minutes and you're like, whoa. That was like mind blowing compared to, you know, what I had planned. And so I just think if we can let go of our own expectations in those ways, they're like, the learning is really limitless. [00:51:51] All right. And  [00:51:51] Tanya: letting go of our own idea of how it should be. Yep. What it should look like.  [00:51:55] Maren: Exactly. All right. All right, Tanya. Well, thank you so much for being [00:52:00] here. I love talking with you about this so much. So I appreciate it so much. Where can we Great to talk to you too. Good, good. Where can we find you? [00:52:08] Tanya: The best place to find me are on Instagram at Project Tappy Home and on YouTube, project Tappy Home. YouTube has actually just started the the, I don't know what you call them, but the, where you have like a hashtag thing where it's at something. Oh, yeah. So you can use those now on YouTube and find people. [00:52:26] But if you wanted to hear about ADHD in particular because you have a child with adhd or you look ways to manage one thing or another. Mm-hmm. , I have a specific ADHD playlist on there. Awesome. And then everything else is homeschool related pretty much. Okay.  [00:52:41] Maren: Great. Well, thank you so much. Thanks so much. [00:52:45] Angela: Let's move on to our l t. Ws Loving this weeks. Angela, what do you loving this week? All right. I am loving an audiobook, . Nice. It is called Bad Vibes Only. Ooh, I'm [00:53:00] Nora McInerney. Okay. Nora, I just recently found her and love her, so she has her own podcast called Terrible Things for Asking. [00:53:11] Okay. Yes. And she talks about grief and she's also. Funny. So those two things kind of go together on her podcast. But I don't always listen to her podcast. But her book is just, it's just a series of essays, sort of memoirish love that. She's written a few different books, so I'm probably gonna go back, I don't know if this is similar to her other books, because she's. [00:53:35] Okay. She's a little bit younger than us. She's probably, I don't know, late thirties, maybe 40. Okay. She's a Minnesotan, so, and her voice is like so comforting to me. So she has that Minnesota accent, but also I love it. It's like, Also her voice is soothing. Mm. So I just love listening to her and I loved her book. [00:53:57] I related to like all the essays, [00:54:00] I related to them completely. And she's so great. It was funny and fun to listen to. It was like a fun listen. So I love that. And also, she's a great follow on Instagram. She's one of my new favorites and I think her Instagram handle is Nora Bali. And Okay. She's good there too. [00:54:18] So. And her pockets. Yeah. Favorite all the things that you just described are just that, just like you know, checks off a lot of boxes that I would like and a good audiobook. So yes. Like, I think you would like it mar because it's an easy, fun lesson. It's great. It will take your mind off other things, but also like [00:54:37] It's relatable. So awesome. Super relatable. Okay, . So, okay. What are you loving? Me? Okay, I'm loving. You know the box office winner, black Panther, Wakanda Forever? Oh yeah. You saw it? I did. Okay. Yes. Have you seen it yet? No. Okay. But a couple people in my family have. It's amazing. It is. Okay. So amazing. [00:54:59] And I [00:55:00] mean, I, because I love the first one so much too. I just, I came in like just on fire for this, and it did not disappoint. It did not disappoint at all. In fact, I was blown away. Oh, wow. Especially by the acting of the. The whole story is surrounded. I mean, it's based on the women. It is. It is a women led cast. [00:55:29] These actors are fa No, I just, I know that oftentimes Auction movies like this don't usually get the Oscar, you know? So you know, the actor, the actors don't get nominated or whatever. Yeah. I just think they need to, I really hope that changes this year, especially Angela Bassett. Oh yeah. I heard like best performance ever. [00:55:55] Her. That's awesome. And Latisha Wright who plays Surey, who, you know, [00:56:00] stepping up into this, you know, her new role. And it is just phenomenal. I I, it's so great. I love that they just put, you can tell they just put their all into this movie that everybody who was involved in it just mm-hmm. just doesn't fit it. [00:56:14] Nailed it. It was so great. That's awesome. I'm so glad to hear because it. Big shoes to fill it. And after, of course, after Chad Boot Chadwick Mosman died, you wonder how they're gonna handle that. So I'm just so glad they Yes, I do wanna see that. Definitely. Yeah. You're gonna love it. And I know you don't, you might not go to all the Marvel movies. [00:56:33] No. This is the one, but I will This one. Yes, you would. This one. And anybody else, if you're in that, you know, in that situation where you're like, I, I'm not gonna go see, you know, like Avengers five or whatever, . That's totally, I get that. But this is, you will, I think you're gonna really love this one. Okay. [00:56:49] That's awesome. That's a great story too. It just, you know, the story in and of itself, just this movie is so great. Mm-hmm. . So even if you haven't seen any of 'em, you'll love it. Yeah. Okay. [00:57:00] All right. Well thank you to our three sponsors, blare Out School at Night Zookeeper. Be sure to check out all of their links in our show notes. [00:57:10] This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Se and Marron Go. We are listeners supported to get extra content and the Back to School Summit free with your membership. Go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive booklist@schoolunrefined.com slash newsletter. [00:57:33] You can find Mar on Instagram at unrefined and at always Learning with Mar. Find Angela at unfi. Angela. [00:57:42] [00:58:00]

Join us as we talk all about outsourcing in our homeschools with Amir Nathoo, CEO of Outschool. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors   We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings:   Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase   Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class    Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription  LTWs    Maren: Hex Performance Laundry Detergent   Angela: Love Is Blind, Season 3   Connect with us!  Visit our website  Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren  Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com   Complete Episode Transcript   [00:00:10] Angela: Hi, we're Maren and Angela of homeschool, Unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters, together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling. We're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:29] Maren: At Homeschool Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and  [00:00:44] Angela: bipo voices. We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:48] Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at home or all your kids are in school, or somewhere in between. Wherever you are in your [00:01:00] journey, we're the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are your kids. Please excuse our voices  [00:01:06] Maren: today as we, both Angela and I both have colds that we are recovering from. [00:01:10] We're getting over it, but it's they're lingering . Yeah, for sure. We're gonna make it through. But this episode is bonus episode 200, Outsourcing with Amir Ou and we'll talk all about our favorite way to outsource and then we're gonna end like we always do with our lt. Ws loving this. [00:01:29] We know  [00:01:30] Angela: teaching reading and writing can be a challenge. [00:01:32] That's why we are excited to introduce you to Night Zookeeper. Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may just be what you've been looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused on develop. [00:01:55] Awesome reading and writing skills all while having fun at the same [00:02:00] time. Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors and the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn together. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. [00:02:18] When you register, you'll get a seven day risk free trial as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. That's a great deal  [00:02:25] Maren: if you ask me. Did you know my family spent a year traveling around the United States? Yep. I, and I wish I would've known about Blossom and Root back then. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:02:46] Boston Root has been gently encouraging in supporting homeschool families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added [00:03:00] in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:03:11] Volume one is available for purchase, and volume two is available on pre. All profits from this history curriculum. A river of voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. You can find samples, scope, and sequence. And information about each of their levels online at www.blossomandroot.com. [00:03:35] You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15%  [00:03:48] Angela: off your purchase. My kids have taken a variety of out school classes throughout the years, from math to grammar, to Star Wars, the Old Republic. [00:03:58] We know kids who love to learn [00:04:00] don't just prepare for the future. They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their interests. [00:04:15] Connect with diverse peers from around the world and take an active role in leading their learning out. School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning free. [00:04:35] Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined, and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with the code Unre.  [00:04:44] Maren: And we are so excited to have Amir Nathoo the CEO of Out School on our podcast today. I did not have a cold when I did this interview, so it's gonna sound a lot better for you. [00:04:57] But it is just an inspiring [00:05:00] conversation about thinking differently, about about learning. And so I really hope you enjoy this conversation that  [00:05:08] Angela: I had with Amir.  [00:05:09] Maren: Thank you so much, Amir, for being here today. We're just so excited to have you.  [00:05:13] Amir: It's a pleasure. I'm really excited to be talking to you.  [00:05:16] Maren: That's just awesome. Okay, so why don't we just get started where you can give us a little bit of information about yourself, your background, and some of your experiences that  [00:05:25] Amir: you've had. [00:05:26] Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, as you shared, my name is Amir Nathoo. I'm co-founder and head of out school. I am speaking to you today from San Francisco. Nice. Where I live and have lived for the last 12 years. You can probably tell from my accent that I grew up in England, so originally from the, the. [00:05:42] And you know, moved over here in, in 2009. Okay. And I've always worked in technology and in software from a very young age. That's what I wanted to do. Mm-hmm. and I, I wanted to be an entrepreneur for a long time, and so out school is my second company. Mm-hmm. and moved out to the. Bay area initially [00:06:00] for work and then, you know, fell in love with with the area and and, and the culture and the opportunities here and yeah, I've always been interested in education because both my parents were teachers and I benefited enormously. [00:06:12] Yeah. From that when I was growing up, and not just in terms of like my formal academic education, but even my career in. Software because, you know, they helped me pursue that as a learning experience outside of school. And so really kind of, you know, my own learning experiences and the influence of my parents has, has guided migration of out school. [00:06:34] Maren: That's amazing. So your parents were teachers or educators? What did they  [00:06:38] Amir: teach? Yeah, my father was a high school physics teacher, and my mom taught part-time. They had met in London, you know, studying for physics PhD. So, you know, they taught these technical subjects. But actually my father came back to teaching. [00:06:52] He had worked in the family business for a period of time and then created his own business running a kinda a TV and HiFi shop. [00:07:00] So he, he always had this combination of, Entrepreneurship and, and learning. That was, yeah, really valuable to me growing up.  [00:07:07] Maren: Okay. Yes. Cuz I was going to ask you, I know your father really did have influence in you in, in starting out school. [00:07:14] Was it those experiences or were there other things too that helped you decide to start out?  [00:07:21] Amir: Yeah. You know, it's, it, it's really interesting when I look back, you know, I, I, I've always known he's had a very big influence on me. Mm-hmm. , when I look back, it's, it's now kind of amazing how much you know, the fact I think that he was, you know, an entrepreneur himself. [00:07:35] So we're always talking about business ideas around the kitchen table. And the fact that he was a teacher not only helped me with my. Learning. But then as I was reflecting later about what kind of business I wanted to start and what kind of area I wanted to work in you know, it was, it was, you know, very influential from that perspective. [00:07:52] But I think one specific thing that, that happens that was incredibly influential for me in the founding of out school was that when I was [00:08:00] about someone between five and seven years old, my father bought me a computer. Old BBC Micro to play games on and, you know, he ran this high-fi shop and TV shop and so, you know, computers were sold through shops like that. [00:08:12] So he, he could see these kind of technologies. Oh, that'd be cool. And, you know, I started playing with it. And back in those days you kind of had to program it in order to Yeah. And then the key moment was like, you know, him finding him and, and my mother. Spotting that I was interested in that and helping me get resources to pursue their interest. [00:08:30] And, you know, that that's kind of key to the inspiration behind Out school was we were reflecting on that, that learning experience that they helped me find was just so valuable right to my life and career. And it was completely outside. Like normal curriculum, like nowadays. Exactly. Computer science, these things that, that, you know, people know they're valuable. [00:08:47] Back then it was just a toy. They didn't do it because they didn't help me pursue their interest cause they thought it was gonna turn  [00:08:52] Maren: into anything. Right. They didn't say, We would like you to learn coding. We, we know this is a the future and you need to learn this.  [00:08:59] Amir: They [00:09:00] didn't like that. And you know, the lesson I take away from that isn't that everyone should learn coding then days. [00:09:04] I think that's, you could probably treat it as a core subject that, you know, maybe kids should learn, but instead it shows the power of the pursuit of. Both in terms of kinda motivating children and in terms of some of those interests are gonna turn out to be extremely important and valuable. Right. [00:09:19] It's very hard to  [00:09:20] pick  [00:09:20] Maren: which. Yep, exactly. And we don't know today what our kids are going to latch onto and and pursue as a career either. And we, you know, we can't know and we. Shouldn't, and that's okay. But we do, we do have this power to give them like the freedom to pursue their interests and learn how to learn. [00:09:41] How to learn is really what we talk about a lot or lo you know, learning how to love learning . We talk about that on our podcast a lot. Just enjoying the process of learning because when you have that, when you have the experience of enjoying learning you know, learning is limit [00:10:00] limitless. You can, you, the world is your oyster when you love learning. [00:10:04] Amir: Hundred percent could not agree more with that. Yeah. And you know, the other, the other part of that is also we don't know where the world is gonna be in 20 years time. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, we have to prepare our kids with kind of not only with kind of knowledge that we think they, they need to know based on our own experience, but we have to. [00:10:20] Recognize that our own knowledge is limited. We can't predict the future, and we have to prepare them for an uncertain changing world, which for me involves like much greater breadth and focusing on the ability to learn and the confidence. Yes. The love of learning, as you say. Much more so than you know historically in education we've been talking  [00:10:38] Maren: about. [00:10:38] Exactly. Okay. And so this, these were the experiences you had as a child, and then you went into the tech world and you decided to start out school. How did that come about? And how does it, how did it start? How did it, how did it start working too? I know that it's evolved throughout the years, so what, what was the beginning about? [00:10:59] Amir: Yeah, [00:11:00] totally. It, it's really fun to reflect on that for me. Mm-hmm. , you know, I founded out at school in 2015. Okay. Yep. You, I've spoken a little bit about some of the inspirations, but you know, a key motivation going in was I knew I wanted to have my own kids . Yep. Didn't have kids then now I have a a three and three quarter year old and a, and a 16 month old. [00:11:18] Oh, wow. And I, you know, I wanted to, you know, build something that they might use and to integrate in my future family life with my work. And that got me reflecting on education, my own education, what I would want for them. And some of the topics we talked about, about, yes. This realization that, oh, what's needed in the future doesn't seem to. [00:11:38] You know look like the traditional education that I went through, as well as recognizing this discrepancy between what has been most impactful for me versus my, my formal education. And then combined with that, you know, insights from the tech world, you know, at the time we were seeing marketplace models really change how various industries were. [00:11:59] Were structured and [00:12:00] you know, Lyft, an Uber, you could order like a ride share just to click on a button. Right? And, and it became, you know, this realization came like, why is it that when this technology clearly can make that work, I can't click a button and get a class my, instead, I have to think about enrolling them in an institution. [00:12:22] Where you months and months in advance, where there's a set curriculum that's centrally set, this makes no sense, right? Clearly we could do better, do better a technology perspective. But then I started thinking, well, why, You know, the technology's there and I started to realize the limiting factors were, you know, I guess. [00:12:38] People's kind of concern about how that would actually work. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. People care so much about kids' education and, and school and, and traditional schooling is so embedded in our society. Yep. And I started forming this thesis that, you know, that's why that it's been kind of slow at a change. And that, but at some point the pressures and the you know, on it, were gonna become too great. [00:12:59] It would [00:13:00] have to find a difference and better way that's more suited to the future. And so I started looking around saying, well, who's innovating? Not from a technology perspective, but from a social perspective. Right. And that's why I discovered homeschooling and, you know, I had certain preconceptions about homeschooling, which, you know, I'm sure you and your listeners are very familiar with and lots of. [00:13:19] Have those preconceptions. Yes. But when I learned about it more, I realized, oh, this isn't what I expected. Yeah. And not only that, but I thought that there were many parts of it, which looked like what the future of education should be, and that no one from a technology perspective was helping enable. [00:13:36] This kind of you know, this kind of activity. And that's really, you know, when yeah, the light bulb moment came off. There's a match between what technology can provide, what is needed for the future, and there's this existing community who was already kind of living in the future.  [00:13:48] Maren: Can I ask you, what were the things that you saw in homeschool that you thought, Oh, this is different than what I thought This is actually, these are actually really great things that I'm seeing in homeschooling. [00:13:58] What were some of those? [00:14:00]  [00:14:00] Amir: Well, first off, the realization that, you know, homeschooling was not people staying at home. Hello. Yeah, exactly. Parents, I mean it's, I mean, it's more obvious now that more people have experienced you know, learning at alternative forms of learning, you know, through the pandemic. [00:14:16] But you know, it wasn't obvious from an outsider then. And I know like, you know, now it just seems kind of, you know, silly that people think about Yeah. . But you know, that was first. Like, it was like, oh, like people aren't just at home. They are collaborating with fellow parents, they're bringing in teachers having a social experience. [00:14:34] And then, you know, the other pieces were you know, parents reporting that they could keep up with. The standard curriculum, standard requirements with much less effort. Yes. If you are more willing to go with the flow, like, don't try and get kids to learn at 8:00 AM if that's not what they wanna do exactly. [00:14:51] Instead wait until they're ready and then you get rid of a whole bunch of kind of resistance or issues. And then, you know, you don't have to deal with constraints [00:15:00] of an institution that has to have like this, you know, rigid schedule. And, you know, you know everything that comes, comes along with that. [00:15:06] Right, Right. And so it was just, it was just like really eye opening and really inspiring. And then one more thing, Sorry, I can wax lyric about this for ages. That reflection on the, So, well, one more thing was just like, I get it. The ability to pursue interests. Like the, you know, a parent told me, you know, Hey, my kid wanted to learn about volcanoes for a week and instead of just doing like one session on volcanoes, we just spent the entire week on volcanoes. [00:15:30] But yes, and we study science through volcanoes. We study geography from geology through volcanoes. We did art, We drew volcanoes. It's not like you're not doing the subjects by focusing on that interest, but allowed them to kind of create an arc with a family that really used the fact that the kid was so interested in it. [00:15:47] Exactly, and that just seemed like so different and so much better. Than what a traditional system could offer, at least back then.  [00:15:55] Maren: Yes. And it's also internally motivated too when, when your child [00:16:00] is interested in volcanoes, they would, you cannot help but learn all about everything about volcanoes. I mean, just everything. [00:16:06] It's just they want it all and it's all just so natural and the most motivating way to learn, and it's efficient. It's like the most efficient way to learn. It all just happens. So effect. Yes. So that's awesome. Okay. So then you, when you started out school, you had a few classes or how did it start?  [00:16:29] Amir: Well, you know, even before founding the company mm-hmm. [00:16:31] you know, best practice, it's like test the idea, you know, is this, it can work, Is this something that anyone would be willing to kind of pay for? Sure. And the theory was that, you know, if there could be a platform that could take some of the burden away from organizing these learning experiences from families, then that's something that that will be valuable and that will be yeah. [00:16:47] And you know, I found a friend who was at the time, a postgraduate researcher at U C S F who was doing just really interesting research in stem cell biology. And I said, Hey, could you te, could you. [00:17:00] Teach this, but to a group of gifted 12 year olds who I know are like interested in science. [00:17:05] They're interested in science that they couldn't necessarily get in the regular textbook. Great. And he said, Yeah, I can do that. I told him all about like what the theory was and yeah, what we're trying to do here. And then you, It's so amazing. I got connected with a group of you know, gifted homeschoolers in the Bay Area and I asked one of the parents this, Hey, hey, would you mind sounding out your community whether they'd like this? [00:17:25] Like, And then the resounding arts came. Yes, it was sold  [00:17:28] Maren: out. I'm sure it was. I'm sure it was and  [00:17:31] Amir: sounds amazing. And then the next one, and yeah, we started with these in person experiences. We were just like testing the waters Sure. In the local area. And then I think the second one was, Tour of a local business. [00:17:42] Mm-hmm. , another friend had this warehouse where they were making iPad cases. And I thought, Well, this is cool. Like he's an entrepreneur. Like I also, this is like a visible physical good. So you, you know, let's take a group of kids around, just show them the manufacturing processes, you know, all the teams interested in [00:18:00] entrepreneurship and interested in craft. [00:18:01] Again, just like sold out like , I believe that's you. Before there was even a website or a product, it was just like emails saying, you know, back and forth and these lists. And at that point I realized there was really something here that if we could create a marketplace of these kind of experiences, and not just those that I described, but like any kind of experience, whether it's like. [00:18:22] Academic or career based or social and emotional or you know, anything then that was gonna be very valuable and no one was doing anything like that at the time. The initial early steps  [00:18:34] Maren: that reminds me of this is what I love about out school too, is that there. Everyone is an expert. All the teachers on there are just so amazing at what they do, and their little niche is it's priceless. [00:18:50] I mean, you are not gonna get that in even a school setting because teachers, I've, I've been one of them, . I was a public school teacher for eight years, and you just [00:19:00] can't. You can't be an expert in every topic that you teach. You just cannot. It's impossible, but I, one of our favorite classes, Two of my kids took, was this, it's an out school class called the Biology Coloring Club, and I actually posted about it on Instagram a couple or last week. [00:19:17] And Oh, especially my oldest daughter, absolutely loved it. It was super interactive. Without pressure though, because like there was no test, there was no final project that needed to be presented. It was just about this internal learning and. Kids got to color these very intricate, beautiful like systems of the body. [00:19:38] And the teacher who is a doctor to, you know, took, gave a, gave the kids like these super interesting facts about this, this system of the body. And my daughter learned so much that like, it's actually she's been inspired to pursue science. Career and Wow. Like, you know, she's just like thinking [00:20:00] about all these. [00:20:00] She's just, because she's actually was like such an artist before we knew that. But like this class really brought art into science and it was just kinda like this explosion of learning and growth and like awareness that she could be. She could use her creativity in science actually too. There's a, I mean, science innately is, you have to be pretty creative to, you know, like think of possibilities. [00:20:28] Yeah. And outside the box and things like that. But this class kinda like brought it all together anyway. I could just I can see the value of all the varieties of ways you can learn on out school cuz we've experienced them personally, ourselves. So you, can you tell us about like some of those options and how they've you know, what you can choose from and, and how kids might be able to learn on  [00:20:51] Amir: old. [00:20:51] Yeah. And you've really captured so much of it, and I'm so grateful that your, you, your daughters enjoyed that, that class. But you know, you, you [00:21:00] captured it in that we have these teachers who create these really unique, compelling classes that really play to their strengths. Mm-hmm. and their skills. And in fact, we encourage teachers as part of their reward. [00:21:10] Hey, Like teach things that you personally are passionate about in ways that you are excited about, but that will come through in the class, and that's how you get, you know this you know, doctor teaching, biology, biology color. Right? And You know, we have now 140,000 class on the sites. There's tremendous variety. [00:21:28] It's amazing across all, all subjects. You know, anything that you can imagine, some stuff that you, you can't imagine. And you know, some of the classes that jump out to me are things like the science of bots. Parents love it, but it's actually really good sciences. Kids love it because FARs are hilarious. [00:21:47] and so everyone's happy. Exactly. You know, that's the thing. Often in education, it's the case. Oh, you know, parents feel like they have to make the kid do this. Kid's not really interested. Yeah. Yeah. Like we try to avoid that. It's possible to avoid that. You just need to have like a bit of [00:22:00] creativity as a, as a parent and a teacher, and you know, The approach where we take this marketplace based approach where we don't insist on any particular curriculum, lets that to happen. [00:22:09] So that's one example. I'm, I'm picking through a couple of others on the site right now. Great. There's one called Being a good Friend. I love that. And the power of confident communication and getting along. Yes. So socially and emotional learning. The weirdest things animals do and why [00:22:24] Let's bust some common animal myths. You know, you see how this is both interesting for kids and involves some cool learning. And then we have classes on trigonometry, you know? Exactly. Advanced trigonometry. And you know, if your kid is. Head on that this is an opportunity to kind of double down on an interest in, in math create a business to help humanity, an entrepreneurship course. [00:22:45] So we have just this tremendous sobriety and, you know, like you, you know, I've now seen it work for myself because you know, I founded out school. I didn't have kids yet. I wanted to have kids, you know, Now I have a three and three quarter year old. And on his third birthday, of course, what did I do? I took the airplane.[00:23:00]  [00:23:00] Yeah, no, out school. So let me try this out. And thankfully he loved it. awesome. There was this potential kind of path where I'd created this and company and, and then he didn't like it. But thankfully he loves it and he's now in lots of classes. And it's incredible to see the development. You know, I did not, That's so, Sign him up to class. [00:23:19] You know, I'm with the intent of like making him more advanced. That's not really how I think about education. My aspirations for him, you know, I I'm, I'm not trying to get him into a fancy college or like be ahead anyway, but, and at the same time, taking these interest based classes is just upleveled him in terms. [00:23:38] Confidence, interaction and some of the, some of the content that he's learning in terms of reading and writing and, and numbers. And so, you know, I, I see that firsthand  [00:23:48] Maren: too. Yes. That's awesome. I, I see that, I see the value in, like I said, like this process of learning. Our, our kids are practicing learning and loving to learn too. [00:23:58] Because like I was [00:24:00] thinking of some other classes, like my kids have taken city planning. But it's all based on Lego Legos. So Cool. That was awesome. Also, my kids have gone down phases of like, they're, they've been really into frogs and so we just, we signed up for like a life cycle of frogs class, and then also got to show our frogs to the class, you know, the, the frogs that we've been catching until it just, you know, It actually, I think, also gives value to what they're interested in. [00:24:29] It gives 'em value. It's like this is actually an official learning. This is learning. And so it, it, you know, it's just so empowering and so that's one another reason why I absolutely love out school. And then something like trigonometry where I, you know, would be so overwhelmed to even think about teaching a class like trigonometry. [00:24:47] To be able to hand that over to someone who really does know and love trigonometry down a tree is very relieving to me. .  [00:24:56] Amir: Absolutely. Absolutely. And there's definitely room for that. You, you don't, [00:25:00] Don't have to and you shouldn't have to do it all  [00:25:01] Maren: yourself, is that? No. And that's the great thing about homeschooling now in today, today versus, you know, 20 years from now you can sign up for a class that it's all encompassing. [00:25:12] It's just so, it's just right there and then, and the people who teach these classes are just really passionate about it. So it's just a win-win for sure. I know there are lots of kids, including my own, who have learning differences. Who really do well in out school classes. Can you tell us more about that? [00:25:30] How you keep kids in mind, who learn differently and how they can be successful with out school classes.  [00:25:38] Amir: A hundred percent. And you know, there's multiple parts to that. And, and you know, we have many kids and families in, in out school classes with you know, identified learning differences. But I also like to say that every kid is different and unique. [00:25:51] Exactly. So true. And the power of recognizing the identified learning differences and catering. For them is that you actually benefit all kids. [00:26:00] Yes. And so, you know, a large part of it was just like how the community developed because, you know, the initial set of teachers were very familiar with those learning differences within various you know, homeschooling communities and sub communities. [00:26:11] Right. And families were sensitive to 'em as well. So the very start of our school, you know, always had that built in. And then you know, over time that attracted more and more families and teachers who were able. Handle those learning differences and, and we've now built in, you know, training into our, our teacher programs on, on, on how to do that for teachers that might have less experience coming in and and serving learners with unique needs. [00:26:32] Right. Some of it's also just innate in the model because with a marketplace based approach, people are self selecting in. Yes, you'll learn a, depending on how they want to interact and what the subject is, can pick the right class and teach you, and it's low stakes. So if you try it and it's really not, Gelling, then just take another class floor stake, one time classes or ongoing classes where you just go week by week rather than kind of committing up front to something that you don't know might work for your, your learner. [00:26:58] So all of that helps [00:27:00] support you know, kids with learning differences, whether, whether explicitly identified or or otherwise. And, and also I also one of the benefits of this live online, this online mode of learning over video chat is again, it's lower stakes, it's still social, but you know, you, you know, you could, the different ways to engage through chat or through speaking, you don't have to unmute. [00:27:21] Yes. And, you know, worst case, you know, it's on a computer, you can always just shut the laptop if you, if you give, become very, very, So . So I think all of that lends itself to being you know, positive a positive way for kids with learning differences to engage. And that's something that we really want to keep as we grow out school as community and as  [00:27:41] Maren: business. [00:27:41] Yep. That's awesome. And I also, I also think it's just so focused on the experience rather than the outcome. I think that's a really big part for, for kids with learning differences. It's just about the learning. It's just about you know, either the connection or the content. You're learning the interest, and We're not worried about, [00:28:00] like, we're not gonna give you a grade or tell you Right. [00:28:02] What, you know, what your outcome really needs to be necessarily. I know there are some classes where you share things, which is really community oriented too, which I love. Yeah. We've done writing classes where we just. Everybody brings a piece of writing and we share it, and then they learn how to give like, positive feedback and it's just amazing. [00:28:22] So I love that too. Yeah. But it's never about like, there's no shame in your, in your, in your outcome. Which is I think, what a lot of kids learn in school. , unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Yeah. Yeah. So, and then also I think like you, you just, you just mentioned you had you do have some like mental health classes as well. [00:28:43] Well, there was like a social, social emotional learning class that you talked about. Can you tell us more about that too? What those classes might, how they might support kids, especially today. You know, after, you know, we've gone through a pandemic and kids, [00:29:00] I think right now a lot of them are suffering, you know, with mental health issues. [00:29:05] And just wondering how out school can support.  [00:29:09] Amir: Yeah. You know, it's a huge area and it's a huge problem right now. Mm-hmm. . And you know, I, I don't think it's just the pandemic. I think there's anything about our society and education, which are, which are causing this. And you know, as a result we see on our school tremendous demand and also, you know, supply of classes around supporting kids. [00:29:28] For example, I'm just looking at class right now. Worry university strategies to increase calm and reduce anxiety. So these kind of social and emotional learning classes groups where there is support and advice and identity based groups that kids can connect with. Others where they might not have that connection or support locally for various reasons. [00:29:49] We don't do medical kind of therapy. Sure. Or, you know, and if kind of individualized learning plan that falls into the, the realm of medical services, which will, which various reasons, Yeah, this [00:30:00] isn't quite the right format for those services. But in terms of social emotional learning, that's a very big part of what, what our school offers with these classes that, again, you would not typically get. [00:30:09] In normal school.  [00:30:10] Maren: Right, Exactly. Yep. Yeah, that's what, that's what another thing I love about old school is that there, it's like there are classes for the whole, it's for the whole child. Not just academicy things that are required of them, but just it's really supporting the whole child, which I love. [00:30:25] So do you have any favorite classes? School that you really love. .  [00:30:31] Amir: I, I talked about a few, like the science of thoughts. You know, one real surprise for us was there's one well there's, there's now several, in fact, many on Dungeons and Dragons. Oh, fun. The first one was learning critical thinking skills through Dungeons and Dragons. [00:30:46] We ever thought that a class like that could become successful, but when it was first posted it, it became one of the most successful classes on the platform within just a few months. It just goes to show that people really dig this combination of kind of, Yeah. [00:31:00] Important kind of hard skills. Yes. With fun. [00:31:03] That was a great example of that. And then another set of classes, and then several different kinds of them are, are like writing workshops, creative writing. Mm-hmm. talk through Minecraft. Minecraft on the side, as well as like, you know, the Zoom kind of video chats, talk to the teachers and. And  [00:31:20] Maren: that, that is  [00:31:21] Amir: so great. [00:31:22] Yeah. And it just, again, it's just matching kids interest with, with with kind of skills or Yes. That, that, that parents are excited for their kids to learn and keeps everyone happy and engaged and, and promotes the love of  [00:31:35] Maren: learning. Exactly. Yeah. You're meeting your, the kids where they're at and going from there which creates. [00:31:42] Phenomenal environment. I just love that so much. What do you see as the future of out school from here on out? Where is it going and maybe even in general of education, Where is education going?  [00:31:56] Amir: Yeah, and you know, I, I hope the two are quite linked cuz we [00:32:00] hope to have like a big positive impact on right. [00:32:01] You know, the future of our school that I wanna see is to create this global learning community where, you know, kids and parents are able to find like exactly the right learning group for their kid at the right time with the right teacher to really engage them and move them forward. And the larger our community gets, the more classes we can offer, the more teachers we can support, and as a result, the kind of better match we can find from four kids with all kinds of needs. [00:32:27] And, you know, we have been, you know, very fortunate to serve about a million learners to date which is a, you know, amazing. Large number. And you know, I'm so grateful for all those families. I also recognize that there's, you know, 58 million K-12 age learners in the US and, and so many more worldwide. [00:32:44] And we have an opportunity to create, you know, a a a different kind of learning experience for, for many, many kids. And one part of that that's really inspiring to me is that. I believe that if kids around the world had positive learning experiences with each other at a [00:33:00] young age, with others from different socioeconomic backgrounds or, you know, different countries or different parts of society, then that would create a lot more empathy and would help towards some of the issues that we see in the world today. [00:33:13] So that's what I hope for out school and, and the hope for the, the impacts that we, we have in education more generally. You know, I hope for. I hope for change in how we think about what's important in kids' education to focus on this love of learning and the ability to learn rather than being so fixated on performance against specific rubrics or subjects. [00:33:33] Yes, and you know, I hope we can you know, have education change to be you know, more dynamic in kids work focused and future looking.  [00:33:41] Maren: Absolutely. Ugh. I hope so. I hope, I hope there are, I hope out, out school influences , the way we educate all of our kids because it is a model. I think it's a model. [00:33:54] And I hope, I hope Schools see that? I hope that schools see that. Because it would just, what a, what a [00:34:00] great combination that would be. I don't know, just to be able to utilize out schools so much more. Ugh. Yeah. I get excited about this kind of stuff. I  [00:34:07] Amir: get so excited about it. I do too. And, and that's what I hope. [00:34:10] And, but I think we have a lot of work to do. We do use, education is so entrenched that it's gonna take time and it's gonna take examples to shift. And that's why I'm, you know so grateful to be. Part of it along with your community and grateful for the work that you are doing to kind of spread some of these messages about you know, what education could be. [00:34:30] Yeah.  [00:34:30] Maren: Thank you. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. All right. Where can we find you?  [00:34:36] Amir: So I always love hearing from our community. Feel free to email me@amiroutschool.com. Out school.com is you know, the, our website I hope many of you're familiar with it. If you're not, would love to, love to see that. [00:34:48] You also find me on, on Twitter, Amir, and so those are places where I, I  [00:34:51] Maren: live on. Great. And then also just a reminder, if you sign up with our personal link it is out [00:35:00] schooler.me/hope School. Unrefined. You will get up to $20 off your first class if you enroll with a code unrefined. So keep that in mind. [00:35:09] I highly suggest it's . You probably won't stop at one class, just so you know. All right. Thank you so much, Amir. We appreciate you so much and everything you're.  [00:35:20] Amir: Thank you, and likewise. It's been a pleasure to talk. You too. Bye  [00:35:24] Maren: bye now. [00:35:25] Angela: All right, let's move on to our lt, Ws our loving this week. Yes, Myron, what are you loving this week? All  [00:35:31] Maren: right. Okay. So I am loving a new laundry detergent, and I got this specifically for a certain, this, like certain need that I had. So it is called hex, h e x performance fragrance, Fragrance free laundry detergent. [00:35:46] And I picked it out because it's specifically for. You know,  [00:35:50] Angela: sports gear and things like that. Oh,  [00:35:52] Maren: yeah. And I got it because, you know, these, you know the shirts that you get for working out, It's like this material. You know what [00:36:00] I'm talking about, you know, performance. Yes. And especially like my husband and I both actually have, like, have these shirts and for some reason they like, they, the odor stays in them even after I wash them with any kind of laundry detergent that I've ever used. [00:36:17] Okay. I mean, I, I'm going for like the strongest stuff, like whatever, you know, And nothing has worked to get, like, it's even sometimes not even a bad spell. It's like deodorant, smell or something, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah. It's just not coming out and so's just the material. I guess. I don't know, maybe other people have had this issue too, and they must have, but I found. [00:36:40] Angela: Hex performance  [00:36:42] Maren: laundry detergent, and it's so great. I use it just for Sean in my shirts like that because Oh, okay. It's like, it's like the, the only thing that gets out this, this odor and it's, and it's fragrance free, which I really like because I don't actually want lingering [00:37:00] other odor either. [00:37:01] Although I think you can get different fragrances if you.  [00:37:05] Angela: Okay, so yeah, So you don't use it on all your laundry, just  [00:37:08] Maren: your I don't, I really don't. I just use it for specifically for our, for our shirts, .  [00:37:14] Angela: All right. Where do you get it? Amazon. I got it on Target. target.com. Okay. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. , thanks for sharing. [00:37:21] I'm gonna have to check that out because actually I'm running out of my laundry deter, and I was just thinking I need to find something new, so. Mm-hmm. , you might like that out.  [00:37:28] Maren: Yep. All right, Angela,  [00:37:30] Angela: what are you loving This. I'm loving a show that's back and I'm not even embarrassed about it. It's Love is Blind. [00:37:36] Three. Okay. Season three . Mm-hmm. . And I'm wondering if anybody else is watching. If you are, hit me up because I'm gonna need to discuss As of right now, I'm like one or two episodes from the end, but I'm gonna finish it. Probably by the time this comes out, I'll have finished it. Okay. Yeah, because what I like about it is Jeremy and I binge together mm-hmm. [00:37:55] because he's just as into it as I am and I'm always looking for a show [00:38:00] that grabs our attention and makes us wanna keep going to the next episode. Yeah. Yeah. If you've been around, well, you know Jeremy, like he goes to bed early. Doesn't, He's very he has good boundaries around sleep. He has really good boundaries. [00:38:12] He doesn't let a binge get to him, . And even this, so, but like the show he'll watch with me, not super late, but he'll watch like an episode and a half, or he'll like, stretch it out a little longer than he normally would. And so I'm happy about that. So it's totally you know You know, just for  [00:38:28] Maren: fun. [00:38:28] This is just for fun. It's, It is, yes. Yeah. Have you watched? Well, I've actually, I think I only watched season  [00:38:34] Angela: one cause I know, I'm trying to think. There was a season  [00:38:37] Maren: two. Yeah. How did I miss that?  [00:38:42] Angela: Well, now I have more to watch. I also like it, this is gonna sound really weird, but, but like, we talk about relationships when we watch it and like you know, how. [00:38:53] We, we connect it to our relationship or that's gonna work or that's never gonna work. I dunno. It's just fun to like, [00:39:00] discuss relationship dynamics with your . That's so great. So it's on Netflix, You should watch it. I like it because it's, it's contained, it's 10 episodes. Mm-hmm. And you can binge. [00:39:09] That's easy. It's a binger. Okay. It's a bender. That's great. All right,  [00:39:13] Maren: well, thank you Angela. Yep. And thank you to our three sponsors, Blossom and Root Out School and Night Zookeeper. Be sure to check out their links in our show notes.  [00:39:23] Angela: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Se and Mar Gorse. We are listeners supported to get extra content and the Back to School Summit free with your membership. [00:39:33] Go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive booklist@homeschoolunrefined.com slash newsletter. You can find on Instagram at unrefined and at always learning with you can find Angela at unrefined. Angela. [00:39:52] [00:40:00] 

Join us as we talk all about quirky kids - what they are, what’s great about them and how we can encourage them. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors   We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings:   Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase   Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class    Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription  LTWs    Maren: This American Life Episode #783: Kids These Days   Angela: I’m Glad My Mom Died by Jeanette McCurdy   Connect with us!  Visit our website  Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren  Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com   Complete Episode Transcript   [00:00:10] Maren: hi, we're Maren and Angela of homeschool, unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters. Together with our master's degree and 20 years combined homeschooling. We are here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:31] Angela: At Homeschool, Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourselves credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to and elevating lgbtq plus and bipo voices.  [00:00:50] Maren: We are here to encourage and support you whether you are a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at [00:01:00] home, or all your kids are in school, or somewhere in between. [00:01:03] Wherever you are on your journey, we're the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are  [00:01:09] Angela: your. This is episode 1 99, Quirky Kids. We're gonna talk all about quirky kids and why that's a good thing and how to foster it, and then we are gonna end like we always do with our l t Ws Loving this week.  [00:01:24] Maren: All right everyone. We wanted to give a big announcement. We have unlocked our Patreon class series, what we don't do, and we're so, so excited about it. So this is just for our Patreon Super Squad members. We do monthly live classes, and our new class series is called What We Don't Do The first class is sitting on for long for lessons and we just finished that class and it was really wonderful you, if you join our Patreon Super Squad today. [00:01:52] You're going to get that class immediately. It's available. It was live, and you'll get it immediately. And then you'll continue to get [00:02:00] li one live class per month. And the recording of that class?  [00:02:04] Angela: Yes. And the next class after that is about winter break. Mm-hmm. between  [00:02:10] Maren: everybody will be thinking of probably in December. Important? Yes, definitely.  [00:02:14] If you've listened to our  [00:02:15] Angela: podcast, you know, we are passionate about outsourcing. [00:02:18] In Homeschool Out school has been one of our favorite ways to outsource. We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their interests, connect with diverse peers from around the world, and take an active. [00:02:43] In leading their Learning Out school has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family, and join us as we set learning free. Sign up today at [00:03:00] Out Schooler dome slash homeschool unrefined, and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with a code unrefined. [00:03:09] Maren: Angela and I both love creative ways to teach reading and writing, and that's why we're excited to introduce you to Night Zookeeper. Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may be just what you're looking for. [00:03:27] Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 that uses a gamified and creative approach. To keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills, all while having fun at the same time. Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors, and the super safe community page where children can work with each other and learn together. [00:03:58] If Night Zookeeper sounds like the [00:04:00] perfect learning PR program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show. When you register, you'll get a seven day risk free trial as well as a huge 50% off annual subscription. That's a great deal if you ask me.  [00:04:17] Angela: If you've been around a while, you know we are picky about curriculum and that's why we are excited to partner with Blossom and Rut. [00:04:24] Blossom and Rut is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. Blossom and Rut has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschool families around the globe since 2016. Blossom. And Rhett currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the. [00:04:46] Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. Volume one is available for purchase and volume two is available on presale All [00:05:00] profits from this history curriculum. A River of Voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. [00:05:07] You can find samples with scope and sequences and information about each of their levels online at Blossom and Rhett dot. You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Ru Blossom and Writ has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your purchase. [00:05:29] Maren: All right, Angela, let's dive into our main topic today, which is quirky kids.  [00:05:34] Angela: Yeah. I'm excited to talk  [00:05:35] Maren: about this. Very excited because I think, I think you and I agree, having quirky kids is one of the greatest. Things that could, I think, that could come out of homeschool.  [00:05:46] Angela: What do you think? Yeah. Yes, for  [00:05:48] Maren: sure. [00:05:48] We love having quirky kids. I think they're a gift to the world. And it feels, it feels like, you know, you are really getting authenticity for [00:06:00] sure when you, when you see the corino come out of kids. People in general,  [00:06:05] Angela: for sure. Right. Yeah. Let's talk about what quirky kids are, because I feel like this is a word that maybe gets thrown out a lot and people have different definitions. [00:06:12] Right. But what we're talking about when we talk about quirky kids is kids who follow their interests Mm mm-hmm. and are confident in what they love.  [00:06:21] Maren: Yeah. And they're really just, like you said, a confident and really just okay. Being themselves, like happy to be who they are. Mm-hmm. Accepting and accepting of other people too. [00:06:33] I think it, it just kind of goes along with that as well.  [00:06:36] Angela: For sure. For sure. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And they're not much paying attention to, you know, the out necessarily what other people are saying. They've got the they've got the freedom to follow their interests because they're homeschooling and they've got the freedom to just be gen, just be genuine and authentically who they are. [00:06:57] Right? And I just think that is a real gift that [00:07:00] comes outta homeschooling. I mean, Obviously there are quirky cut kids who go to traditional school as well. Right. And I think that's great too. But I think in homeschool your, your quirkiness can really shine . I think it's safe in a way that it can't Yes. [00:07:15] In  [00:07:16] Maren: public school. Yes. Yeah. It's safe at home. I mean, it's safe to do it. I think there is a little bit, it feels a little bit unsafe when you're around people who maybe aren't as accept.  [00:07:27] Angela: Right. All those, or you're afraid might judge you for your union  [00:07:31] Maren: interest. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And yeah, so we love that our kids show  [00:07:37] Angela: their quirky side. [00:07:38] Maren: And it could be maybe they're like super interested in something that they, and  [00:07:43] Angela: they're, they show it up to everyone or or they  [00:07:46] Maren: just get into it or they just get into it. And I think it's just like an unapologetic love for whatever. Yeah. I think that's so great. And this can en encompass, I think, neuro divergent and neurotypical kids. [00:07:56] I think sometimes it, there's this label that it's a, [00:08:00] you know, maybe this, there's neuro divergence and I don't think that's always the case. I think a lot of times it's not. Yeah.  [00:08:06] Angela: It can be, it, it is. I mean, I think a lot of neuro divergent kids are quirky for sure. But then so are a lot of neurotypical kids. [00:08:13] Absolutely.  [00:08:14] Maren: Absolutely. Yeah. So we're talking about all  [00:08:17] Angela: kids for sure. So why do you think Marron, that it's good? Mm-hmm. to have quirky kids, especially when they're  [00:08:26] Maren: younger. Okay. Let's start with when they're younger because I , I think kids. Into the habit when they're younger, they get into the habit of being themselves. [00:08:35] Yes. It normalizes being unique. Mm-hmm. It celebrates being unique. Mm-hmm. . Being different and having different interests than your friends is the norm. It's just what? It's, it's life. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And I think once you get into that habit, and that's your reality when you're a kid mm-hmm. then growing up, it [00:09:00] feels a little, it feels a little  [00:09:02] Angela: off if it's  [00:09:03] Maren: not like that. [00:09:04] And so I like that our kids grow up expecting that everybody's gonna be d. And you need, And I think it creates an acceptance of a variety, not just quirkiness, but I mean any kind of Yeah. Difference diversity. Mm-hmm. of any sort. Like there is just like this understanding that we are all different mm-hmm. [00:09:26] and we appreciate  [00:09:28] Angela: differences. Yes. And I really like that. I love that too. I think I think it's joyful to see kids when they are young. Being an old, but we're talking about young kids. Yeah. Being into what they're really into. I mean, it is, I don't know. I mean, I know that I've seen my own kids and other kids. [00:09:47] Mm-hmm. excitedly. Tell me about the thing that they're into or excitedly tell whoever is willing to listen about the thing that they're into and that is So special at a young age and something that sometimes [00:10:00] gets squashed as kids get older. But you're right, if we can normalize it and expect it, Yeah. [00:10:07] Then if they aren't doing that, maybe it will feel off to them.  [00:10:11] Maren: I also, I also think, yes, like you said, it's, it's brings this joy, it spreads this joy, and that is like this love. Learning. I would, I would call it learning. Mm-hmm. , it's living, you know? Yeah, yeah. And it's contagious, I think. I think it's contagious. [00:10:29] So when, when kids are cookie, they're just really in their zone or whatever, and they're spreading this joy, it's just that is priceless. And I don't know. Just having that experience is, is, is so powerful. It's so powerful. It's so good for us. It's good for us as adults to be influenced  [00:10:46] Angela: by that . Oh yes, for sure. [00:10:49] Because that is Well, I'll just speak for myself. Mm-hmm. , I mean, that has been, you know, what's the word? Like Kind of drummed out of me as I [00:11:00] as I age. Right. Okay. Yeah. , Go ahead. I mean, so like, I mean, at least when I was a kid mm-hmm. , there were a few categories of things that were acceptable to be interested in or that were presented as possible interest, you know? [00:11:14] Right. Not that it was even acceptable or not, but that just like I knew about things I knew about that you could be interested in mm-hmm. . And so I don't know that I've really developed my quirkiness Yeah. Yeah. Until I've gotten older. Yep. Really. And like been okay. It's been okay with whatever it is. [00:11:32] Yep. And so true calling things weird or different or guilty pleasures or whatever, I don't know, but just like accepting of who, what things you're really into. Well,  [00:11:44] Maren: I think there is a point too, even now, like we, we know this, we know being, you know, having this quirkiness is so good and you, and we love the uniqueness, but I think what even today, like there is a. [00:11:57] Quirkiness when kids are little. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . [00:12:00] And then at some point we  [00:12:02] Angela: start to  [00:12:04] Maren: not get excited about their quirkiness. Now we need to like, let's be done with all it in whatever, reign it in. And now you have to like kind of get in line a little bit. So why do you think it's, why, why is it good for older kids to also have  [00:12:20] Angela: this quirkiness? [00:12:21] Well, okay, I'm, I think because then they are, First of all, being themselves. I mean, that is so important that everybody feels comfort, comfortable being themselves, right? Yes. Liking what you like, liking, knowing what you're interested in. Mm-hmm. , I think just knowing the things that are exciting to you. [00:12:40] Mm-hmm. knowing that when you're older, like let's say a teen I think is priceless. I think that's priceless. Because otherwise, You know, I just think it makes you more confident. I think it makes you know more about, and I hate to always make this the end goal, but like, what you [00:13:00] wanna do in the future. [00:13:00] Mm-hmm. . And that's not the end goal, but you know, like yeah. What kind of job might be interesting to you? I think it's, it's easier. What kind of things do I wanna study? Do I wanna take classes about a certain thing? You know? I think it's easier. Be confident and know what those things are. Yes. [00:13:17] Instead of being more lost.  [00:13:19] Maren: Well, I wouldn't even say it, Angela. I don't think it's necessarily an end goal. I think what you're saying is just like we do spend a lot of time at our jobs , you know, when we're an adult. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and it would be great to hone in on something that you. You know, is, is really in line with your values and your interests and your skills and, and your experiences and things like that. [00:13:42] And it, it might not be permanent. You know, we know, we know that many people switch jobs  [00:13:48] Angela: and careers throughout their, their lives.  [00:13:50] Maren: So it's not necessarily  [00:13:51] an  [00:13:51] Angela: ending, but it is, like, there are,  [00:13:53] Maren: you know, there's a, certainly a commitment level, you know, to jobs. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So I think it's, we know, we [00:14:00] know how much, you know, our jobs. [00:14:03] Have influenced us and, you know, affected us. And so it's so good to know to even get close closer Yeah. To something that you, you wanna do. Ah, it's so good. So just to, to have that self knowledge and awareness is so, so  [00:14:20] Angela: key, right? Mm-hmm. . And I think, I think what I meant by. Not making it the end. Mm. It's just that like, I know so many adult, well mean well meaning adults. [00:14:32] Mm-hmm. , you know, put pressure on kids from the time that they're little Yes. To, and asking them like, What do you wanna do when you grow up like this?  [00:14:40] Maren: What do you wanna do with your life? Yeah. You know? Yeah. From kindergarten. Yes. What's, what do you wanna do? A job.  [00:14:46] Angela: Yeah. Right. It's a lot. So so I guess that's what I meant. [00:14:49] Yes. But you're right. I know. It is, it is important because your job is a lot of your life when you're older. So,  [00:14:56] Maren: I mean, and, and when you are, when you're a teen, you [00:15:00] really are thinking about that. You know, it's not like Yeah. Not like a, you know, a far off thing, like from when you are in preschooler mm-hmm. [00:15:07] it's like, no, I mean, this isn't a. I gotta think about this. Yeah. I should, I should be thinking and planning. Right? But I also think it affects your whole life in that way too. It's like you get to kind of curate this life that works best for you too. It's not even just doing what you like, but like having the habits that work best for the way your brain works. [00:15:28] It's all so good, and  [00:15:30] Angela: I think that knowing the way that you learn, knowing the way  [00:15:32] Maren: that you learn, knowing the way you, that you organize, knowing the way that you know, you need to set up your, I don't know, set up your kitchen . They're just, or just set up your life. Set up your life friends. These are the type of friends that you know, help me thrive in my life. [00:15:49] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . These are some of the things that I just, you know, need to have in place. Those are all things that like, I think help when you are fostering this, you know, quirkiness in your kids.  [00:15:59] Angela: For sure. [00:16:00] For sure. Yeah. I also think definitely. You know, in the teen years. Mm-hmm. friends are important. [00:16:06] Peers are important, Yes. And I just think if, if your child is comfortable with themselves and with their unique interests and who they are, I think that has such a positive effect on the other kids around them. Absolutely. Do you see somebody being themselves? It is so inspiring. Yeah. It's, to me for sure, like I see somebody into something cool that I hadn't, you know, Thought about before or just being unapologetically themselves. [00:16:36] Yeah. I feel so inspired to do that myself. Yes, yes, yes. So I think that's really, really key. And to find friends  [00:16:45] Maren: who accept, accept each other for their quirkiness. . Right. That is, that's so, that's so key too. And that like, kind of goes back that we talked about how important it is, you know, it's how great it is that our kids are, you know, so unique and quirky when they're young, [00:17:00] so that when they're older they're like, Hey, like if there is a friendship that's happening and there isn't that acceptance or something's off, then they feel that they're like, This doesn't feel right because mm-hmm. [00:17:09] I'm just, you know, I am, I am this person. If you don't like it, then that's, there's something. You're not accepting about me or whatever. And there can be dialogue about that, but it's good to understand. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.  [00:17:21] Angela: So, So, okay. How do you think we should foster quirkiness in kids?  [00:17:26] That's a big question. [00:17:28] Yeah. I wanna say, first off, I think if you're homeschooling, if you're listening to this and you're homeschooling, I think you're already probably doing it. You know, I mean, I think homeschooling in and of itself is helpful in that way because everything is kind of personalized already, probably are you know, gearing things towards their interests. [00:17:46] They probably have time to their interest. , they have time for the things that they're interested in. Yep. And so I think you're probably already doing it.  [00:17:54] Maren: Yes. Yes. That is so true. Yeah. I was just gonna say, I think that was like, I think that's the [00:18:00] biggest thing that contributed, you know, for my kids is just time to be themselves. [00:18:07] Time to play they way, the way they wanted to play and just  [00:18:11] Angela: grow  [00:18:12] Maren: their pretend world. You know, and, and without without constraint.  [00:18:19] Angela: for so long, I hadn't thought about that, but time. Mm-hmm. , you're right, because kids when they're in school are so busy. They are so busy with school, you know, during the day and homework and then fitting in other activities. [00:18:33] That, and family time and sleep and homework. Yes. It's just, it's hard to really develop your interests. When you're  [00:18:40] Maren: in school and it's, Yes. And it's not just a practical thing. It's not, It's not just the time, but it, the time is communicating, I think, to the kids. Mm-hmm. , the most important thing for you to do is to do the things that the adults are telling you to do all day long, you know, or whatever. [00:18:57] Mm-hmm. , that's the important thing. [00:19:00] Prioritize that. Yeah. Don't prioritize your own interests and who you are as a person. Mm-hmm. . And I think that that is a mistake. Yeah. We need to communicate with our time. Mm-hmm. our priorities.  [00:19:14] Angela: Yes. And  [00:19:15] Maren: so for our, you know, our priorities, for me, my priorities for our kids was to be themselves, be creative. [00:19:24] Mm-hmm. , love learning. Mm-hmm. , enjoy the way they love learning, and be curious and just go down rabbit holes. And they did that. They did that. Yeah. And it was so good. I will say when my kids were younger and they were doing that, I, of course, You know, a wrestling match in my head every day. Like, Oh my gosh, we're not getting to all these other things. [00:19:47] Angela: Yeah, we should be doing math, we should be doing reading or whatever.  [00:19:50] Maren: Yes, we try every single day. Yeah, every single day. I remember honestly like standing in the middle of my living room looking around at just the [00:20:00] chaos or around me going, I'm never gonna be able to wrangle this in. Yeah. But, and, and then also thinking like, why do I think I need to. [00:20:09] And so I don't know.  [00:20:10] Angela: Now looking at wrestling, is that lately mm-hmm. , right?  [00:20:13] Maren: Yes. And so looking back, I'm just so glad that a lot of the time I open the space up for that Right. Space and time for that. Right,  [00:20:20] Angela: Right. So it's mostly encouraging those things that they're interested in instead of mm-hmm. [00:20:26] You know, diminishing them or whatever. Yes. Instead of suggesting other things, instead of prioritizing other things. Really encouraging those things that they're interested in. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , whatever  [00:20:35] Maren: that is. Yep. And then the other thing I think that's really important is to just own our own quirkiness. [00:20:41] Like you said, Angela, you're learning about your own quirkiness right now. And, and like, Kind of growing into that, and I think that that's so good for our kids to see too. It  [00:20:51] Angela: is definitely  [00:20:52] Maren: a unique set of interests and  [00:20:54] Angela: skills too. Right? And sharing that with your kids and sharing your own journey [00:21:00] in that way. [00:21:00] Yes. And yeah, I think is really, really important because, you know, most things are about modeling and I mm-hmm. , I, mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. It is, like I said, because I'm kind of, I feel like late to the game in this way. Mm-hmm. , I mean, I've definitely always had interest, but you know, some things I felt embarrassed about or Mm. [00:21:19] Kind of squashed, or like, I don't, actually, mostly it was like, I didn't feel like I had a wide variety of things to pick from for interest. It's like, well, do you wanna do a sport or music or both . Right, right, right.  [00:21:32] Maren: You know? And there was a limited amount of music amount of those. Of both. Yeah. Yeah. So it was either, Volleyball, basketball or stop Yeah. [00:21:41] For me, you know which of those three.  [00:21:44] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. So I think learning about the, the world and just like how many options there are and like testing things out and I just, for me, that's like a lifelong practice and yes, [00:22:00] the sooner my kids can get started on. And finding their own joys, I just think the better off they're gonna be. [00:22:06] And so I really do want to encourage and model that for them. For  [00:22:11] Maren: sure. And even if, even if our kids do choose a very maybe traditional career, I think that's great. Yeah. And they can have. They will, I think, value interests outside of their job too, which is just so healthy and you know, having a way to, to balance  [00:22:30] Angela: your life out. [00:22:31] Having a full life that's having a full life more than just your job, but you also have other  [00:22:35] Maren: Yes, exactly. Yeah, and you're right, like you said, example is so powerful just mm-hmm. . Watching your parents have those quirky interests is probably more powerful than anything else. Anything else, Right? For sure. [00:22:50] What's your quirky thing? I don't know. I mean I, I'm, I'm kind of figuring that myself out too. I mean, I have a lot of, I have a lot of interests, you know, I love doing. A lot of [00:23:00] different things, but like recently, like I think I, I think I talked about this on Patreon, maybe not on the main podcast, but in our Facebook, you know, by nothing group, we, Oh, there was a free. [00:23:12] Organ. Yeah. Somebody was giving away a free organ and I took it . Yeah. Right away. That's quirky. It's amazing. That is  [00:23:20] Angela: quirky. I didn't think  [00:23:21] Maren: about it at the time, but I was like, Oh, that was okay. I look back and I'm like, Yeah, that was pretty quirky. That's yeah, so, because I love, I love the  [00:23:30] Angela: organ . Have you been playing it? [00:23:33] A little bit. A little bit, Yeah.  [00:23:34] Maren: And we're, you know, the kids are enjoying it a lot for sure. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.  [00:23:39] Angela: All right, let's move on to our lt. Ws Loving this week, right? Yes. Yeah. Mar, what are you loving?  [00:23:45] Maren: Okay. I am loving it's a podcast that I listen to all the time, this American Life. Oh, yeah. Which I know I, I talk about, I've, I've shared several episodes with you, Angela, lately, but this last  [00:23:57] Angela: one. [00:23:58] Okay,  [00:23:58] Maren: let's hear. Everybody needs to [00:24:00] listen. It's number 783 Kids these days. Is what it's called. Oh, okay. And the description says, we hear from kids who are dealing with some of the country's most contentious debates. Oh. No debates that are supposedly about them. Mm. So it's just these kids who are caught in, you know, adult turmoil. [00:24:24] For sure. Yeah. Basically. And I am, I mean, I know you all probably. You know, if you're listening to this podcast you know, have a heart for kids and are thinking about just the things that kids are dealing with these days, and this is these are just personal stories about those things and Okay,  [00:24:41] Angela: everybody needs to listen to it. [00:24:43] Okay. I would, I would love to listen to that. I'm gonna put that on my list in my queue. I'm gonna put it in my queue. Yep. Put it in your queue. Will appreciate it. Definitely. Okay. Thank you. Right. This American Life has been around for years before they had podcast apps and that's why they're on episode like 700 and something. [00:24:59] That's [00:25:00] right's. It is like the first podcast. Yeah. Yeah. That's really well done.  [00:25:03] Maren: So it's really well done and I think it's becoming a much more inclusive podcast, like the stories that they're sharing. Okay. I'm just really appreciating them. Noticing it more and more. Yeah. Yes. From the lens of many, many different people in the world. [00:25:18] I'm right  [00:25:19] Angela: in America, . That's great. That's great. All right, Angela, what are you loving this week? Okay. I am loving a book that this could be the book, like if you are in a slump, if you don't know if you like audio books. Okay. Or, you know, you've never tried or wonder if you could get hooked. I think this could be your book. [00:25:41] It's called, I'm Glad My Mom Died by Jeanette McCarty. Okay. Yes, I've heard of this book. We've heard of this book. Yes. Okay, so this is a memoir. But it's very it'll take you in right away. So Jeanette McCarty is a young actress. She's probably 30 now. Okay. [00:26:00] She was on I, Carly. Oh yes. A Nickelodeon. As a young, as a young child. Mm-hmm. . And this is just her life story, which is pretty traumatic. You know, she didn't want to go into acting, but her mom wanted her to, cuz it was her mom's dream that her mom. [00:26:19] Got fulfilled for herself. Mm-hmm. . So her mom put, you know, pushed her into acting and Jeanette wanted to please her mother because she loves her mother. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . it is about that relationship and it is about her, you know, life in the spotlight and with her mother. and with her brothers and her mom is sick the whole time. [00:26:40] Mm-hmm. , I mean, it's in the title. I'm glad my mom died, so, you know, her mom dies, but no, spoil mom was sick. Yeah, no spoiler. Her mom is sick, you know, for much of her childhood. Mm. And so there's always kind of the threat of like, is her mom gonna die? And so she wants to really please her mom. So anyways, it is so well written. [00:26:59] Wow. [00:27:00] It is so well written. The audio is amazing. She reads it. By the, the first sentence, , you know, for the first story I was hooked. I was like, I need listening to this. So I think, you know, as a parent too mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . It definitely It's just a, it's just a cautious, a cautionary tale, you know? [00:27:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a cautionary tale as a parent. Mm-hmm. , not that I'm like her mom, but you know, I just recognize just some behaviors or practices and I, I like, I, you know, am constantly thinking like, Oh, I do not wanna do that, or I would never wanna say that, or, or whatever. So, I don't know. I just think as a parent, it was really, It was important as a child that was imp It was important. [00:27:40] It's important for everybody. So yes, really well done.  [00:27:43] Maren: Okay,  [00:27:44] Angela: So you should listen, I think you should just get it on Libro fm, which I talked about a few weeks ago. Yes, it's a, or the library. Get it on your library, but listen on audio for sure.  [00:27:56] Maren: All right. Thank you Angela. And thank you to our three [00:28:00] sponsors, Blossom and Root Out School and Night Zookeeper. [00:28:04] Be sure to check out their links in our show notes.  [00:28:08] Angela: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Se and Marron Gors. We are listener supported. To get extra content and the Back to School Summit free with your membership, go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive booklist@homeschoolunrefined.com slash newsletter. [00:28:29] You can find on Instagram at unrefined and at always learning with you can find Angela. Unrefined, Angela. [00:29:00] 

This week, Julie Bogart is back to talk all about changing our minds in parenting and homeschooling.  Fall 2022 Season Sponsors   We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings:   Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase   Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class    Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription  LTWs    Maren: Good Inside by Dr Becky Kennedy   Angela: Calm Aid   Connect with us!  Visit our website  Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren  Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com   Complete Episode Transcript   [00:00:00] Angela: hi, we are Maren and Angela of Homeschool, Unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters. Together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling. We are here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:29] Maren: At Homeschool, Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to an EL elevating LGBTQ plus and bipo voices.  [00:00:48] Angela: We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:50] Whether you are a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at home or all your kids are at school or somewhere in [00:01:00] between. Wherever you are in your journey, we're the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are your kids.  [00:01:07] Maren: This is episode 1 98, Changing Our Minds with Julie Bogart. [00:01:14] We had such a good conversation and we're so excited to share this with you, and then we are going to end like we always do with our l t Ws Loving this week.  [00:01:26] Angela: Before we get going, we did wanna let you know about our Patreon classes. We are starting a new series. on Thursday and it's our what We don't do series. Mm-hmm. , if you have been around a while, you probably have listened to one of our, What we don't do messages, we're turning them into a class and we're gonna talk about what we don't do as a, in a class format. [00:01:48] And that is gonna be Thur this Thursday at one o'clock central time. And if you are interested in that, you can join us on, on Patreon for our super squad. That's the $10 level. We [00:02:00] will have links in the show notes for you there, but we'd love to see you if you can't come live. You can get it recorded and video and audio. [00:02:07] We will be putting those out and then, The day or two after that.  [00:02:11] Maren: Absolutely. And you know, we are passionate  [00:02:13] Angela: about what we don't do. we are and spreading one of our favorite things. . It's important. It is. Mar and I both love new and innovative ways to make reading and writing fun. That's why we hope you've tried Night Zookeeper. [00:02:28] Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with. If the answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may just be what you've been looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills, all while having fun at the same time. [00:02:51] Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from Real tutors, the Super Safe Community pages where [00:03:00] children can work with each other and learn together. If night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. [00:03:09] When you register, you'll get a seven day risk free trial, as well as a huge 50% off annual subscription. That's a great deal if you ask. When it comes  [00:03:20] Maren: time to decide on whether or not to use a curriculum, we think you should check out Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing, focusing on creativity, science, nature. [00:03:35] Literature and the arts. Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging in supporting homeschool families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is [00:04:00] currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:04:03] Volume one is available for purchase and volume two is available on presale. All profits from this history curriculum. A River of voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. You can find samples, scope, and sequences and information about each of their levels online at www.blossomandroute.com. [00:04:29] You can also find them on, I.  [00:04:31] Angela: At Blossom and Root,  [00:04:33] Maren: Blossom and Root has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your  [00:04:43] Angela: purchase. Over the years, our kids have taken many out school courses that they have loved. Have you given out school a try? We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. [00:04:56] They create it. That's why Out School has [00:05:00] reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their in. Connect with diverse peers from around the world and take an active role in leading their learning out. [00:05:16] School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family. And join us as we set learning free. Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined. And get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with a code Unre.  [00:05:42] Maren: All right. We are so excited to introduce you. [00:05:46] If you don't know Julie Bogart Bogart yet, here she is. Julie Bogart is the creator and owner of Brave Writer, the online writing and language arts program for kids and teens. She's written two books, The [00:06:00] Brave Learner and Most Recently Raising Critical Thinkers, Julie Holy Supports Homeschool Parents Through Her Social Media Channels. [00:06:08] Her podcast, her books and her community. We have always absolutely loved talking to Julie and we're just so glad that she is back. Enjoy this conversation. [00:06:20] Thank you so much, Julie, for joining us again on our podcast. We've had you on a few times and we love having you every single  [00:06:27] Julie: time. Well, the feeling is mutual. Mar, I love being here.  [00:06:31] Maren: Thank you so much. Okay. So I really wanna talk about your book that actually came out quite a while ago, but you and I have both been so busy that we haven. [00:06:41] Able to make time to talk about it, but I'm so excited to talk about your book Raising Critical Thinkers. And we talked a little bit about it maybe on your podcast last time. Yes, yes, Yep. But I just, this was before, I think we read your book though. You were still writing it and we've now since read it and love it. [00:06:59] And I'm just [00:07:00] wondering what made you wanna write this book right  [00:07:03] Julie: now? Specif. Yeah, that's such a fun question for me to answer because you have to go all the way back to the 1990s to answer this question. Mm, okay. Yeah. It really started with the dawn of the internet . So in like 19 95, 96, when the worldwide web was crawling out into the space, homeschool parents in particular were. [00:07:25] We're like the first people to barge through those doors. We were so isolated. Yeah. , there were about 800, right? There were about 800 Absolutely. Thousand families who homeschooled back then in the United States today there's 3.2 million, so that's, That's amazing. A sizeable growth. And we did not have a means. [00:07:41] Of connecting except in local communities. Mm-hmm. . And so you can imagine the numbers were small. You know, you might, in your community have five or 10 people you know who homeschooled. Right. Some people had no one. So we all hopped online. Yep. In these couple of major sort of homeschool watering holes. [00:07:58] And to be fair to [00:08:00] the movement, the truth of the movement at that point is that it was. Yeah, we were white. Yep. Mostly conservative. Politically and religiously. Yep. And heterosexual and married. Right. So that was the demographic, like 98%, 99%. So I imagined we would get on these discussion boards and we would really like each other. [00:08:21] You know, I, I had been to park days. People are friendly, you know, occasionally they mention your child misbehaved, but nobody's getting into big fights about politics at a park day. Sure. And yet I get on these discussion boards and while there's plenty of friendliness, plenty of good advice. Mm-hmm. , there was also a shocking willingness. [00:08:43] Mm-hmm. to really go to battle. Mm-hmm. over things like oxy Clean, whether or not to breastfeed, Oh no. Whether or not you should potty train your child by age two. And that's the tip of the iceberg. When we got, When we got near [00:09:00] religious discussion, like doctrinal issues or theology, the gloves came off. [00:09:05] Wow. People  [00:09:06] Maren: get really brave, don't they, on  [00:09:07] Julie: those sites? Oh my gosh. And this is before we knew about trolls, so I jokingly say homeschoolers and bena trolling. We used to call it flaming, but it was really just a lot of fighting. And so here's the question that sort of grew inside me at that. . Why does everyone think they're right? [00:09:26] Mm. And why do they assume that all they have to do is state their belief and everyone will agree with it. So there was very little curiosity. It wasn't like, Wow, you're a five point Calvinist. I'm only a three point. I wonder why that is. . No, that is not what happened. It would be things like, you know, Julie, I just think you're wrong here. [00:09:46] The actual true theology is X. Mm-hmm. . And so for me, at the time when I was expecting sort of this homogeneous. Kumbaya experience. It was not that. And in fact, I was [00:10:00] so intrigued by this problem. I started my own discussion board. We called it at the time the Trap Door Society. And the reason it had that name Yeah. [00:10:10] Was that I felt like all these women were performing roles on a stage, you know, parent, wife, educator, spiritual or non-spiritual person, whatever you were. And we had no way of. To nurture the individual person that we were. So I wanted a trap door so we could go beneath the stage and like try on different costumes. [00:10:33] Imagine other points of view, read books that were for our pleasure, not for our children. That's amazing. Yeah. And it was, it was amazing. It was. So that was the.  [00:10:44] Maren: You created that safety. That's that's what it sounds like to me when you're talking about that trap door. That's a place of safety where you can try things on without getting completely reprimanded. [00:10:57] Well,  [00:10:57] Julie: that was the goal. Yeah. It did [00:11:00] not go that way. Oh,  [00:11:01] Maren: okay.  [00:11:01] Julie: So I started this community. Mm-hmm. . There was a lot of love. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And there were some, I mean, phenomenal discussions that were life changing for me. I will say that right out of the gate, my parenting, my home education, my outlook on the world was shaped profoundly by that community. [00:11:17] But there was also some battles that literally took me out, like days of crying obsessing over responding, trying to craft the perfect words so no one would be mad and still, Oh, I feel that lacking anger. Early days of the internet. Mm-hmm. the early two thousands. And so that persistent experience of why does everyone think they're right? [00:11:43] Right. Stayed with me. And it got me curious about how we form our thoughts. Why we think, how we do, what we believe about other people who think differently. And I, I just got on this serious mission. I've been studying, thinking for over 20 years. I've been so [00:12:00] fascinated by it. I even went to grad school to try. [00:12:02] Understand how we all think so differently. So yeah, that's really what led me to it. So ironically, it came out during the Covid period, , which is a, an important time to think critically. Oh my gosh. It's almost like, you know, we hit the Zer of trolling and flaming and everything else.  [00:12:22] Maren: And it continues. And it continues. [00:12:24] Like for sure we need to, we need this skill. So what is your definition of critical thinking? Why do you think, Well, I mean, we already talked about why we think it's important, but if you have any other thoughts about that, but just what is it to you? What  [00:12:37] Julie: does it look like? Yeah. Critical thinking for me starts in an unusual place. [00:12:41] Like if you go into the education world and they talk about critical thinking, it's always about analyzing something over. , like a piece of literature, a scientific discovery, a mathematical problem. Yes. But I think critical thinking starts closer to home. [00:13:00] It's self-awareness. It's the capacity to notice your own bias as it kicks into gear, right? [00:13:06] To pay attention to what triggers you to be curious, for instance, about why you think you're right. Yes. And it's doing all that before we extend a similar. Attitude, I guess I would say. Yep. To someone else. So if I know that I have these inherent triggers, biases and proclivities, right? That's also true of the person I'm chatting with. [00:13:30] Mm-hmm. , the cuter. And my job is to at least get to a place of understanding how the jigsaw puzzle of their experiences, education, thoughts, socioeconomics, and identity created safety right for them through this. Because that's what our beliefs are. They are a safety protective shield that keeps who I am free of anyone harming me. [00:13:58] Maren: It sounds to me like you're [00:14:00] talking about self-awareness as being one huge key. Totally of critical thinking it is. And then being aware that this other person is also has this other set of aware, you know, self awareness and maybe not, may not be as aware about those is of those things. And then, oh, it's just the, a higher level thinking here. [00:14:21] You know, I just think when you get in those situations and the. The ability to understand yourself, understand this other person and how you work together, and how it, how it's okay that they're thinking differently and it's okay that I'm thinking differently and we can work together in this way. I mean, it's just. [00:14:38] This is what's so needed in our world today. Can you imagine if E the most powerful people in the world, can't even do this, Julie? No. No. Can you train them ?  [00:14:52] Julie: Well, the problem, the problem I really think comes down to the fact that. There are dangerous [00:15:00] thoughts. Mm-hmm. thought worlds that exist, but the criteria for danger varies community by community. [00:15:06] Mm-hmm. , person by person. So a lot of times when I've done these interviews, people have said, So you're really focused on critical thinking, leading to empathy. And my rejoinder is actually, no, this book isn't about empathy. You may gain some empathy. Sure. Come to a place where you look at your child, for instance, and have more insight into why they hold a view, and it creates a feeling of warmth or compassion towards your child. [00:15:31] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But mostly it's about understanding because for instance, we love true crime, right? We're all listening to podcasts. We all do movies, and we are doing it because we are fascinated to understand. Why a person imagines that the best solution to a problem in their life is murder. We're not and and we want to understand it. [00:15:56] That's why we watch. Right. We don't just judge it. We're like, [00:16:00] Well, what factors led that person to thinking, I will have a more beautiful life if I off this other person. What we end up feeling at the end is horror, not empathy. Right. Right. It actually engages our deep morality. We. Wow, these factors are problematic. [00:16:19] This person saw the world in a way that is so different than mine. And then it leads us to ask what I think is a very important question, What is it about that person's perspective that we haven't accounted for? Mm-hmm. in the public square. Yep. So if we think about someone like, you know, just to go for the extreme Hitler and go for it. [00:16:40] Yep. Right. What we have, were an entire population. Of German Christian, middle class churchgoing people. Mm-hmm. becoming persuaded that the solution to their economic crisis was genocide. Yeah. And the question we [00:17:00] have to ask ourself is how did that happen? How did that happen? Yep. Because they were persuaded. [00:17:08] There was a structure and a belief system that they were able to inc. That made them think they were on the moral high ground. And so for me, critical thinking is all of that. It's not just empathy, it's accounting for those factors that may possibly lead us into very immoral and scary thought worlds. [00:17:31] But we do it from a place of. Actual desire for a better world. Right. We're not doing it because we're inherently evil. We're doing it because we think life will be better for us and our people.  [00:17:43] Maren: Right, Right, right. And that's why we need to think critically about our history. That's right. So that we can change it. [00:17:50] does not repeat itself. True. Yep. So true. One of our favorite chapters in your book is probably the last chapter, The Courage to Change Your [00:18:00] Mind. We love this idea. We talk about it a lot as parents. So just sitting with that for a minute, changing your mind. Why do you think that changing your mind is important? [00:18:10] Julie: Well, first of all, the capacity to change your mind shows a certain agility in your own ability to process information. So psychological research shows that psychological flexibility is a key component to a healthy ego. Mm-hmm. and healthy relationships. So if we are hardened or rigid, we actually start to eliminate the capacity to relate to a variety of people, right? [00:18:39] Then what we do is we start shrinking the group until we're in a very small corner of the world, well defended against all the attackers. We become victims, right? Of our own ideology. Mm-hmm. . So the courage to change your mind says, I'm actually related to all of humanity. There isn't [00:19:00] the in group, in the out group. [00:19:01] I'm here to hear experiences, data, research, information that is not like the kind I have and understand how it's shaped these people that I am connected to simply by being a human being. I don't think we think that way very often, but one thing I have not, Is that parents are the most likely to change their spiritual, political, social value beliefs when a child. [00:19:32] Tax them. So you have a child? Oh yes. That's me. Example. Right? Totally, totally. All that story, because I think it's so powerful. Well, there are,  [00:19:40] Maren: there are actually, I mean, there's a lot of things I can't even share right now until my kids are grow, grown up. Yes. Until they've given me permission. But I mean, definitely politically, spiritually so many things. [00:19:51] I actually, I wrote down a few things, things that I've changed my mind on as a parent recently, probably hair color. Tattoos [00:20:00] piercings. Not that I'm letting my kids pierce their or get tattoos, but , like, I've changed my mind on it because just talking about it ha has created this big rift and I'm like, I, Why am I so against the, I mean, why am I so I against this? [00:20:18] I do not know. I honestly don't know anymore . So I had to rethink that. Food choices, TV and movie choices, clothing. What body parts can be shown and not shown. You know, these are things and ultimately school choice. Yes, school education choices. Because, you know, if it were up to me, we'd probably, you know, be doing something very different school-wise right now. [00:20:41] And I'm listening to my kids and they're telling me what they need and I'm like, Wait a second. I you. For a while I was like, No kids, we're doing school this way. This is what I see as the best way . And they're like, Mom, listen to us. We're telling you what we need right now. And I'm, and I had to really [00:21:00] go inside myself and evaluate like, why am I, why are my ideals the boss of. [00:21:08] Their education right now, it's their lives ultimately. And I can, That's right. Yeah. So I can make, Obviously I wanna make safe and good, you know, good choices for them. But there are lots of safe and good choices. I  [00:21:22] Julie: think so. No, that is so beautifully expressed. Mm-hmm. . Because part of what happens is we've already lived through those ages. [00:21:31] We were teenagers and young adults. We have regrets, choices we made that we think, Wow, that was a bad decision. Or I wish my mother had stopped me from doing X. Right. And so we come in with this perspective that somehow we can protect our children from right. Regret, mistakes, getting in car accidents, whatever it is. [00:21:49] Mm-hmm. . And yet it is those very experiences that formed and shaped us into the adults we are today. Right. And when we don't give our children the [00:22:00] agency over their choices to some extent, obviously you have some, some room there, but to some extent, Then they feel the need to react that much harder. Yes. [00:22:11] Because they are testing, not you, but the world outside of your home to find out, am I qualified to be admitted as an adult? Yes. And if they don't have the opportunity to make some of those calls and fail. They will not discover what resources they need. I, I did a podcast interview recently with a mom who was raised in the obedience model as a child. [00:22:36] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And she told me she got to young adulthood and thought, But how can I know if I'm making a good decision, where's the authority that's gonna tell me I'm doing the thing? Yep. And so our kids need the, the right. I remember Johanna, she had red. She decided to die purple and the culture, not me. [00:22:57] I was like, That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. , the culture told her, [00:23:00] if you're a redhead, you're not allowed to dye your hair because your hair is too beautiful. You're not allowed to get rid of red hair. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember supporting her and saying, You know, it's your hair. Pick a color. So she went in to get it dye, and even the hair stylist was like, Are you sure? [00:23:18] Yeah. And so the hair stylist refused to bleach the hair. She's like, We'll just put purple on top of it. And it came out black. Okay. No. So she didn't end up with her purple hair. She had red hair and black hair, and then she decided to go full goth to support the black hair, you know, early two thousands, [00:23:36] And I look back on that and I think what an interesting moment for her. Yeah. To assert a desire and have the whole culture oppose her and to keep fighting for it anyway. Like this is what we want. How will they build their self confide? If they never have a chance to encounter opposition, to stand up for what they want, [00:24:00] to find out if it matches what their hopes and dreams were. [00:24:03] They need some of those chances, don't they?  [00:24:05] Maren: They absolutely do, and I think our traditional educational system is teaching our kids to obey, yes, meet the standards, do the thing, and perform and not really think critically about themselves. They, it might be thinking critically. One small topic here, one small topic here, but it's not this all-encompassing critical thinker that, that we're raising, you know, in our education system. [00:24:32] And it's, it's tough because then they go to co, they go to college and, and you know, they might not. Go find the resources they need to do well in college because they haven't been taught to be proactive about those things or to figure out what they need or even to find their passion to find the thing they love to do in the world because they've just learned to go through the hoops. [00:24:53] Go through the hoops, do it, get a job, make  [00:24:56] Julie: money, , a hundred percent. In fact, when I taught at Xavier [00:25:00] University, one of the most glar. and obvious lacks in the incoming freshman was a sense of agency about their own thoughts. Mm, mm-hmm. . So they came in having been trained to write essays and how to even do research online or use the, you know, the library correctly. [00:25:18] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But they were always trying to find out, but what did I really wanna hear from them? Yeah. What was the angle I hope they would take? And so we. All kinds of writing activities and writing on the board and small group sharing because my goal, Was to hear something genuine from each student. [00:25:35] I needed to hear how did this idea land for you? And if the idea hasn't landed for you yet, I don't wanna hear from you. Like, don't just turn in an essay. Yes. And so part of the training in high school, especially if you've got homeschoolers in this audience, but even in regular high school mm-hmm. . To give agency to a child's voice, and one of the few ways they can feel [00:26:00] they have a voice is opposing your voice. [00:26:03] So even though you think to yourself, This is a dangerous idea, , I want you to step back and think how cool that they felt that they could take the risk to tell me this crazy idea that I would never want them to believe. Because what they're saying to you is, I'm entertaining. The thought world that counters the moral center of this family. [00:26:27] Maren: Yes. I love that. And actually, that's one of the things I was just gonna ask you about, Julie, because I just watched one of your. Instagram reels about encouraging parents to argue with their kids. [00:26:36] So this, I think this is a great example of  [00:26:40] Julie: encouraging critical thinking. Oh, it totally is. And I wanna give credit to one of my staff members because this morning I was having this meeting with Ramona and Ramona said, Julie, one of my kids is in your brave writer movie class on dystopian movies, and she. [00:26:56] The dystopian genre . And I told her, [00:27:00] Take that class cuz it's gonna have your best writing. Yeah. And so she's in there just hating these movies. They're watching them as a family and having huge arguments about them. And I was like, That totally reminds me of when my kids' dad and my kids argued about Nacho Libre for two long, Oh my gosh. [00:27:18] In the middle of summer, on our back deck after a barbecue, just dissecting the characterizations, arguing over whether or not this was a good movie. And so I think we sometimes forget that kids, they love that idea of being an. They love the feeling of being able to take an adult model of something and then shred it. [00:27:38] My son, Jake, totally, as a great example, he today, just to give kind of context, he's a human rights lawyer who works for the in Central Africa Republic.  [00:27:47] Maren: Wow. So you need to be a critical thinker for, for that job.  [00:27:49] Julie: Oh heavens yes. Went to Columbia Law School. Right. So he, he knows how to think, but I remember in junior or in, when he was a junior in high school, he watched this one movie, Some of [00:28:00] your, your listeners could even look it up. [00:28:01] It's called Zeitgeist. It was a thing in the mid two thousands. Okay. It's basically a massive critique of capitalism and it really does promote sort of a communist worldview and you know, eradicating the monetary system, et cetera. And I remember he came to my ex-husband when we were married, my husband and I at the time, And he's like, Mom, this is how the world needs to be. [00:28:23] But we watched it and his dad was saying to me, Oh no, Jacob's gonna end up in this horrible ti world of weird conspiracy theorists with the Illuminati, you know? Oh, totally. And I said, You know what, Actually, John, this is amazing. Not only is he watching it, he's telling us he's watching it, and he is critiquing the system that feels. [00:28:47] Air, like water. Like he didn't know this was a system Yeah. To critique until he heard there was a critique. Like you can criticize money. What, what a thought. Right. He had never known Right. [00:29:00] To do that. Yeah. And so we just leaned in. We just asked more questions, watched the movie, agreed with what we could raise questions about what seemed inconsistent, but we didn't like attack it. [00:29:10] It was more like, Is that working anywhere in the world? You know, like ask kinds of questions. And he evolved through it. He didn't stay there. Of course, yes. It was like a starting place for critique.  [00:29:22] Maren: I think we have to remember that our kids aren't, aren't going to stay in their thoughts for the rest of their lives. [00:29:28] They are, their, their brains continue to develop and it's really the practice of critical thinking. It's the practice of learning. It's the, the, the practice of curiosity and synthesizing and having conversations and growing. That's what they take. To the next level of their lives. A thousand percent. Yeah. [00:29:49] They don't take this one topic and just, you know, think this is life  [00:29:55] Julie: for the rest of their lives. Well, it's easy to do that experiment with yourself. Yes. How [00:30:00] many of your really hard one positions that you took at age 15 or 18 are still identical with how you think about the world today?  [00:30:09] Maren: I'm so glad they're. [00:30:10] No,  [00:30:11] Julie: No no. And in fact, how many I, I ask this in conferences all the time. So if I have a room of a hundred people, I say, How many of you hold the same exact beliefs as your parents in the areas of sex, politics, education, parenting, and food and exercise? And out of a hundred people, only 10 raise their hand. [00:30:31] Wow. So what you need to know is that same ratio is gonna be true in your family. There might be one kid who. Agrees or aligns with you generally, but there are gonna be a whole bunch who don't, and that doesn't mean you can't have a relationship with them. And it doesn't mean they've abandoned their morals. [00:30:49] It means they're thinking deeply.  [00:30:52] Maren: That is so, so, so true. And I I just think what a skill. What a skill to learn and to not have to be [00:31:00] perfect at when you're 15 or 18 or even probably 21 . I mean, this is gonna take a while. This is not a perfection. This is not something that's gonna get perfected. [00:31:09] Early on and it, it, it might not ever, I mean, this is, yeah, this is a process. I was just thinking today, you know, I , you know, made a few mistakes. I'm 46, so,  [00:31:19] Julie: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm 60. I, I've changed my mind countless times and if, and you will continue to, will continue to, and also you can't anticipate what will become an. [00:31:32] So none of us knew what a pandemic was. None of us knew how to respond to a pandemic. We were all jumping into our communities to tell us, these people are trustworthy. These people are not. This information's reliable, this information is not. Yeah. And we were using our blind loyalty to community to guide us because none of us has the expertise to evaluate. [00:31:57] Pandemics epidemics, vaccines, [00:32:00] public health economics, that are the result of this, you know, guidelines for how you run a company. All of that was suddenly up for grabs. Yeah. And when that happens, we stop thinking critically. We actually jump in with both feet to our safest communities. And what I've had to train myself to do, and this is something I write about in the book, Is notice that, Yes. [00:32:25] So when I'm scrolling through Facebook and some high school person I haven't talked to in 35 years, post an article and I think, Oh my gosh, that is the dumbest article I've ever seen. When I feel that smugness come up, yes, I know. I'm not critically thinking, Yeah, I am self protecting in that moment, critical thinking at that moment is, Oh, this is from someone I don't typically trust. [00:32:48] This is a person I haven't thought about in 30 years. Right. I don't really know what she's like anymore. She thought this was worth posting on Facebook. That's interesting. Mm-hmm. . I wonder what that says about her. I wonder if I've ever read this [00:33:00] article with this writer through the lens of this other person. [00:33:03] What, what might there be to learn? In reading it. Now, to be honest, I can't do that a lot. I, it takes so much energy to do that. But to keep myself honest, I try to do it fairly regularly. I try to give myself access to viewpoints that make me cringe. Mm-hmm. and I don't do it to deconstruct them. Yes, I do it to understand them. [00:33:29] Maren: That is so good. And it's also alternatively, when we, I think read, read articles or listen to something that is from somebody we normally do agree with. Like we, I think we also also have to think critically like, Yep, do I agree with this? Or what part of it is, Do I do I think is, you know, real or you know, is there part, are there parts I. [00:33:49] Push back on a little bit or something. So I think it's so good to do both. Absolutely.  [00:33:54] Julie: Great point, Miller. Yeah.  [00:33:56] Maren: Yeah. Okay. So I wanna go back to some of your work, Julie, because I [00:34:00] know Ev, everything you've always put out there, you've always encouraged us to make it our own. And I think you've, from the beginning, have encouraged us all to think critically. [00:34:09] You've inspired. Us all to do poetry, tea, time, , and I'm not kidding you. I have my oldest reads poetry by herself now all the time, and I, I attribute it all to poetry, tea time. I really do. So that you so much, but I know that you also encourage everyone to make. Their own special thing. So what is, What do you think is the key to those magical learning moments like poetry, tea time, or something else that we  [00:34:41] Julie: have come up with? [00:34:43] I think when we're talking about learning, what we're actually talking about is a meaningful connection or relationship. To what is being learned. And so just to deconstruct poetry tee time for a moment. Yeah. I knew that adults hated poetry , [00:35:00] and for some reason my whole life I've loved it. I think because I'm innately a writer, and so any manipulation of language has been interesting to me. [00:35:08] My mother also gave me a a rummy card game that was all. So when I was young, I knew all the names of poets, which then later made me wanna read their poems. My father, my grandfather, gave me a poetry book that was a, I'll read to you if you read to me book. So I would share it with my brother or a friend who came over, or my mother, and we'd read poems to each other cuz of the nature of this book. [00:35:30] Awesome. So my early childhood was really warm towards poetry and then song lyrics became my obsession. Bruce Springsteen, Jackson Brown, Tom Petty, they all write such great storytelling and such great lyrics. So as I was raising kids, I was disturbed to discover that adults didn't like poetry. Oh. And I was so afraid that would happen to my children. [00:35:53] And I was on this email list back in the day in the nineties, and somebody shared that she was teaching geography to [00:36:00] her kids, but they didn't like geography. So she started making tea and cookies for when they studied geography. Yes. And suddenly they all liked geography. And I was. Well, I can do that. [00:36:11] We, I drink tea every day. Exactly. And so I created this whole British tea time and added poetry to it. And so I think really what we're saying is when something seems opaque or difficult, we want to tie it to something that automatically creates a sense of warmth and pleasure and openness. So I wish someone had done that for me with. [00:36:34] That that did not happen with Math , but with my kids, because it never happened to me with math. Mm-hmm. , I put so much more energy into manipulatives and games and cards and dices. That's so great. Yes. And even though my kids would all say, and they will say this openly, that math was not my strong suit. [00:36:54] What is ironic is all five of them have been very [00:37:00] successful in math and they, they came out, two of them are programmers and three of them did calculus and I mean, that's amazing. You did that. Good job, Julia. I take credit, it doesn't matter what they think. No, but honestly, the early years to me are what were the foundation for that. [00:37:18] And then I hired tutors and they did take some math at school. But my point is, I think what you're asking. How do we create the meaningful sense of connection that makes me warm and open this something that feels intimidating. And for me, that would be a great criteria for creating magic in learning. [00:37:37] Maren: That sounds amazing. I mean, I, I could think about that in every scenario. Like, what is gonna cause this to be a warm. Cozy or warm and safe  [00:37:48] Julie: environment. Yes, and and stimulating enough to be interested, right? So, right. You might make tea and cookies to go with math, but if your child's already resistant or sees no purpose in it, they'll eat the [00:38:00] cookies, drink the tea, and still hate math. [00:38:02] Part of what made poetry special is that poetry's easy. You just read it out loud and everybody finds pleasure. But for something that's more of a struggle, I think part of what we wanna do is admit that it's going to be challenging. Provide a lot of support, create as many real life connections as possible, and then do it in small doses so that we don't create a toxic relationship where we're dreading and it feels tiring and I don't wanna do it. [00:38:31] Maren: I love that. Yep. So, so, so true. Okay, so another thing that we, both Angela and I both love about your book. So many other things that you've created is just the activities, but this specific, this book specifically just has so many practical ideas. And a whole book can be intimidating, honestly. Yes. [00:38:50] Sometimes, you know, but if, if you sprinkled out in, you know, throughout the book so many activities that if we. Just pick a few of those activities. I [00:39:00] mean, it would, it could change our home school and I just love that you did that. Did you, did you know you wanted to share practical activities Yes. And ideas when you wrote the  [00:39:10] Julie: book? [00:39:10] Because I just feel that way about everything. Right? Like, I just feel like. We spend so much time reading nonfiction books for information and ideas, but the practical implementation is where transformation occurs. Yeah, Yeah. And for me, a lot of these practices are things that sort of, I stumbled on with my own kids because I was obsessed with thinking. [00:39:32] Yes, I was obsessed with it. So, you know, in that very first chapter where I'm talking about viewpoint and says who, and you know, are we hearing the fairy tale from the Wolf's point of view or the narrator's point of view, or the protagonist point of view? Yes. The reason that I am obsessed with that is that that is the foundation of all critical thinking. [00:39:52] Whose viewpoint Yes. Am I listening to? And what is the criteria by which they create that viewpoint? Mm-hmm. . So we can start that [00:40:00] at age. Totally. Yeah, of course. We would watch these Disney movies and we would analyze the characters to death. Why do we love Ursula? Even though she's the bad character? What is it about her that's compelling? [00:40:13] Why is she more interesting than the good characters? And why would Disney do that? Right? And then you just get into this conversation. What is her sob story? Do we believe it? Does she have some justification for being this angry? Ooh, that's so great. These are great questions. And honestly, they sort of forecast what they'll be encountering in college when they're analyzing. [00:40:35] Absolutely. Lenin versus you know Decart. .  [00:40:39] Maren: I was just gonna say, because it's really easy at five and. To any age, but especially at five or younger where there's this dichotomy, like you said, bad and good things aren't bad and good, and it's, it's really easy to push that thought through, you know, And it's, that can be very scary. [00:40:59] And to [00:41:00] understand that the bad. The bad guys or bad people in movies may have some underlying things going on. What a great discussion and deep thinking for a five year  [00:41:13] Julie: old that Yeah, and you know, they're, they can do that. They're dealing with siblings. Right. How much bullying happens in a family? [00:41:19] Just an absolute ton. Mm-hmm. . Yep. And so if we are only ever treating people in binaries as bad and good, we can easily harden our own families into the good kids, the not good kids. We start scapegoating a child for being disruptive or picking at each other or being loud, and we start treating that child differently because we see them not through a. [00:41:42] Prism of factors, but only through this lens of obedient or cooperative or, you know, creating pleasure for the adult at ease. Right. Versus the child who's taxing and hard. Right? Totally. Yes. And so that's another reason we do this. We want siblings in particular to see a [00:42:00] 360 degree picture of this child. [00:42:02] They have to share a table with, watch a movie, with share a computer, with go on vacations with Right  [00:42:09] Maren: or parents too. Their view of their. Good parent, bad parent, right? Yeah. And it's easy to just say that  [00:42:14] Julie: you're the bad parent.  [00:42:16] Maren: Yeah. You make me do these things. And there's a lot around that too, that they can, they can think criti critically about, which is awesome. [00:42:23] So if there's one thing parents could implement today right now in regards to raising a critical thinker. What do  [00:42:30] Julie: you think that would be? Oh, I love this question. So I'm gonna give you a little story by way of example. This is a practice that you can try. So a lot of people think critical thinking is like opinions about social issues and politics, but that that is just one feature. [00:42:46] Critical thinking is literally every decision you make all day. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , Which, you know, which way is the fastest to get downtown without traffic is a critical thinking decision. Absolutely. What to eat for. Do I dessert? First, critical [00:43:00] thinking decisions. What we want to do is invite our children to make more of those judgment calls using their own research and data, rather than usurping that role for them. [00:43:13] So I'll give you a a very clear example. Imagine you have an eight year old, it's time for dinner. Mm-hmm. , you say to that child, Hey honey, it's time to wash your hands. It's time for. And this child who has cooperated with this, you know, command for a year sure. Suddenly says, Yeah, I'm not going to, I don't want to [00:43:30] Most parents have one of two ways they respond. There's the authoritarian model which says you have to cuz I said so, right? Mm-hmm. . So you don't really, you could even give a reason, but mostly you're just like, Dude, I'm the mom. You're not. Go wash your hands. The second way is what I call the manipulative obedience model. [00:43:49] What most periods today call cooperation. And what they do instead of requiring obedience is they manipulate it. So what they say is, Oh honey, you must wash your hands. [00:44:00] They're these things called germs and they live on your fingers. And when you touch the food and then eat it, it will go in your body and make you sick. [00:44:06] This is what science tell tells us. Therefore, you must wash your hands right now. In that second model are very proud of that model. Yes. , they're always like, Oh, I would never ask them to do something. I don't explain , but basically what they're doing is they're giving a bunch of information the child doesn't care about. [00:44:25] Nope. And then requiring the child to accept that as better information then the personal experience they're having right now, which is, I don't wanna wash my hands. Exactly. So what I recommend is this. You can't do this every day. Some days you gotta throw 'em in a car seat without an argument and strap 'em in and go. [00:44:41] Mm. But once in a while, go down the rabbit hole. So when your child says, I don't wanna wash my hands, you say, Oh, well that's interesting. Tell me more about that. Why? Why don't you wanna wash your hands? I don't know. I just don't wanna, Is it the temperature of the water? Let me get a thermometer. [00:45:00] Let's measure the temperature, see which temperature is most comfortable for you. [00:45:03] Ooh, I love that. So you start doing that and the child's like, I still hate it. Oh, okay. So it's not the temperature. Is it the wetness? Yeah. I hate how it feels on my hands. Should we try hand sanitizer or it dries faster? Oh no, that's sticky. Well, that's interesting. So here's where I am. I have this belief about germs, but you don't like washing your hands. [00:45:26] I wonder if there's any other information out there about germs and hands. Mm-hmm. . So you do a little research together online, show 'em, and maybe you discover that heat kills germs. And so you say to your child, How would you feel about not washing your hands? And we just blow dry them with a hot blow dryer, , and the child's like that sounds good. [00:45:43] And so you do that or the child still doesn't want to because here's what might be underlying it, your belief in germ. Is actually not a belief. It's propaganda. You've accepted and here's how I know. Didn't your child just eat Cheerios off the [00:46:00] floor without washing their hands? Right? Didn't you at Target watch the baby, spit out the pacifier? [00:46:05] It landed on the floor of Target, you picked it up, sucked the germs off , and then put that pacifier in your baby's mouth. Do you actually believe in germs or you just doing the parental propaganda program where you pass on information, right? Designed to coerce my child. So what I recommend at that point, Either one of these accommodations. [00:46:27] Okay? We're gonna measure the temperature you like it at, You know, 72. We're always gonna wait till it's that temperature or hand sanitizer, or the blow dryer. Or maybe you just roll the dice. You say, You know what? You're right. I don't even know if I believe my own rhetoric. Should we find out if you get sick? [00:46:44] Are you willing for that to be a possible outcome of this? Let's try it for a week. See what happens. Sure. And then see what happens. Right? Right. Give your child meaningful opportunities to collect data, to ask better questions, [00:47:00] to evaluate their experience. To roll the dice and see what the outcome of their hypothesis is. [00:47:07] Now at the start of covid, could you have done this? No. Right, Because we were terrified and we had information our kids didn't have. So at that point, going online, showing them the germs, explaining how people are in the hospital, giving them a meaningful understanding of why you have this level of fear is a great idea, right? [00:47:26] But on the day to day, That's really not what's animating you. Right? And so I think that's where we have to do a better job of interrogating our own positions and our kids give us a chance to do that.  [00:47:38] Maren: Right. And we have to be also, I think careful about imposing our own expectations on their critical thinking. [00:47:46] That's right. Because a five year old may not, even after all that information and all the testing and all the, everything you've done, they might. Yeah. I still don't wanna wash my hands . Right? Because they're not ready for that critical thinking at in that [00:48:00] moment. That's right at for that thing. And that's just where they're at. [00:48:02] You can't force their brain to develop anymore than where they're at right  [00:48:06] Julie: now. No. And that's where, like Dr. Becky Gooden side, Dr. Becky was, is so right on. I'm reading that book right now. Oh, oh, so good. So good. So when. , ask a child to cooperate with your better judgment. Mm-hmm. , you are spending capital in that relationship. [00:48:26] Maren: You are spending capital. Absolutely.  [00:48:28] Julie: And so that's why we want to make some of these demands fewer, you know, we want minimal demands. Yes. And then we want to explore when we can. A child's opposition because maybe it's just that the child was really engaged in a movie and dinner happened and they don't wanna take the time to wash their hands. [00:48:47] Exactly. And dinner delayed. Can we pause the movie? There could be factors here that have nothing to do with critical thinking about hand washing and just convenience that you are tempted to  [00:48:59] Maren: overlook. [00:49:00] Absolutely. And it it, like you said, it also requires us to do our own critical thinking. That's right. [00:49:05] On washing hands or. Eating at 6:00 PM Why does that have to happen, ? That's right. You know there's so many things we can think critically of, and we can be an example of critical thinking. And while our kids might not be like, Oh, mom, you're such a great critical thinker today, , I'm going to follow your example. [00:49:27] The, the consistent, critical thinking every day is going to pay. Them, You know, witnessing that every day and seeing how you are transforming and learning from your own critical thinking. You, our kids can't really help but do that because  [00:49:46] Julie: that's their example. In fact, I have a great story about this. [00:49:51] My son, Jacob, that I mentioned before, when he was in high school, he got very interested in this one social issue that was on the ballot. I'm not gonna name which one it [00:50:00] was just to keep everyone neutral. Mm-hmm. . And so he came to me and he is like, Mom, I can't vote yet, but I did all this research and I wanted to tell you why I think you should vote pro. [00:50:09] So he went through almost a PowerPoint level presentation. He had data and research in his computer was open. Yeah, it was really ad. He was like 16 and it was really good. And at the end I was like, Jake, that makes a lot of sense. I totally get where you're coming from. Thank you for sharing all that with me. [00:50:26] He says, So are you gonna vote pro? I said, No, I'm still voting Con. Yeah. And his eyes squirted tears. And he said, Mom, I count on you to be logical . And I said, Wow. Well, I appreciate you saying that, and I don't wanna discount what you just shared with me, but you, what you shared with me didn't account for all of my concerns. [00:50:51] It accounted for a lot of concerns you have. It didn't account for mine. But don't worry about that because this is my. And I don't have to agree [00:51:00] with you to appreciate the strength of your argument. And I think over time your side's gonna win. But I haven't personally been persuaded yet. Yep. And it was a very difficult moment for him. [00:51:12] Fast forward, you know, he's 30 and I'm older, and interestingly enough, We have just the best conversations. He ended up being the research validator for this book. I let him look. Wow. I paid him to do it. He went through and made sure that my arguments were actually built from solid foundations of evidence and, you know, make sure I wasn't quoting some spurious researcher who mm-hmm. [00:51:38] who happened to find their way onto a webpage I didn't vet. And so just to show. He saw me as a logical person, first of all. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , which I think is a beautiful credit. Secondly, we had to learn to live with the tension of disagreement, even when we were both being logical. Yep. And then third, we've built a relationship over time that makes it possible for both of us to [00:52:00] respect our capacity to do research and find answers. [00:52:03] And I think if there's anything I would want for parents, that's what it is. It's not agreement, it's not a. It's this dialogical respect for each person's capacity to show up with their own viewpoint while respecting the other person.  [00:52:20] Maren: It's beautifully said. Julie. Thank you so much, and I think that's a perfect place to stop for today, even though I could talk to you for another hour as usual. [00:52:29] But I just appreciate your insight and your encouragement that, you know, we've always, I've always relied on your encouragement through my whole parenting and homeschool journey, so I just thank you  [00:52:41] Julie: so much. Well, you do a great job both on this podcast and with your family, and so I. That you are continuing to put out such good information to your people as you  [00:52:52] Maren: as well. [00:52:52] All right. Take care.  [00:52:54] Julie: Thank you. Bye.  [00:52:56] Angela: All right. Let's move on to our lt [00:53:00] Ws. Yes. Marron. What are you loving this week? Okay. I am  [00:53:03] Maren: loving a book that I actually happen to talk with Julie about Very Oh, very shortly. I mean, we just like, I think Julie just kind of mentioned it in our conversation. You may have. I picked up on it, but I'm actually reading it right now. [00:53:18] And so it was fun to hear Julie mention it. And it's called Good Inside A Guide to Becoming the Parent You want to Be. And it's by Becky Kennedy, Dr. Becky . And it is just a  [00:53:32] Angela: great it is  [00:53:34] Maren: confirming. All of the, all of the healthy things we want to do in our parenting. [00:53:42] And I wanna say homeschooling too. Yeah. I think this is a great book for homeschoolers. It's just a great book. So I just, I, I can't say enough good things about Dr. Becky. She's my new favorite. . Yeah. I feel like she says things first. I was gonna say Angela, she says things that we. [00:54:00] Yeah, I was first gonna say maybe better. [00:54:03] Mm-hmm. , But actually I'm giving ourselves credit, Angela, and I'm gonna just gonna say, she says it in it with a twist, you know, that's, Yeah. On with her specialty, you know, as a doctor for, And I think we have this twist as a specialty, you know, as parents and educators and you know, we  [00:54:17] Angela: have, but we're, we're really share, We  [00:54:20] Maren: really share so much of the same message. [00:54:22] Yes.  [00:54:23] Angela: And so Good. I'm loving. Yeah. You know, people need to hear things in different ways and from different people and I, so I fully support like different people, books and podcast and whatever. Yeah. But she I have not read her book, but I do want to mm-hmm. because what I've really liked about her is you know, she doesn't profess to. [00:54:45] Always do it right, . Exactly. Yep. And she describes that in the book too for sure. Yes. Like she's just coming from a place of like, Look, I'm in the trenches with you too. Like, I get it. Yeah. Things are triggering, things are hard. And [00:55:00] so she's really Supportive in that way. It feels like it feels reachable. [00:55:04] It feels attainable. Yes.  [00:55:06] Maren: And it is good to hear from, you know, a, a, a doctor, a psychologist, you know, who really understands the brain and how it just very intricately.  [00:55:16] Angela: Yes. And so it is, it's, it's science  [00:55:18] Maren: that this is really good parenting and, and it's effective and it's just healthy. Mm-hmm. , it's just healthy for. [00:55:26] Physically, mentally, emotionally,  [00:55:27] Angela: it's all healthy. . Yeah. And her premises, it's called Good Inside because Good inside. Yeah. Because we are all good inside. Yep. Kids too. We're all like wanting to do our Yes. Do good and do our best, so. Yep. Yeah, so I love that. I love that. Yes. Thank you for  [00:55:42] Maren: sharing that. [00:55:43] Yes, of course. I'm, I'm excited for you to read it. I know you will,  [00:55:46] Angela: and it'll be fun. I'll probably listen, Are you listening? I'm listening. Yeah. Yeah. Does she read? Yes. Okay. Yeah, that'll be what I'll do. All right, Angela, what do you loving this week? I am loving something that I think I may have talked to you about in private, [00:56:00] but now I would like the whole world to know about it. [00:56:01] Yes. It's called Calm aid. Oh, yes. And this is a natural supplement for anxiety, overwhelming stress. And you can get it on Amazon and you can get it cheaply. So we have subscribed and saved to it. . That is  [00:56:16] Maren: amazing. You know, it's a, you know, it's a winner. You know, we need it. Subscribe and saved . Yes.  [00:56:21] Angela: And the reason why I like it is because I was. [00:56:25] You know I've been on medication for anxiety and depression. Some of my kids have been on things at different times. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. for different things. And so we have a psychiatrist that we talk to. Yeah. And the psychiatrist was telling me that this calm aid is over the counter, right? Mm-hmm. [00:56:42] it's an over the counter thing, but. In many countries, like European countries, she said it's their first line of defense. For something like anxiety or depression before you, they try other medications. Wow. And so this is just their first go [00:57:00] to. It's real. It's a real, It really works. Yeah. All it is is lavender. [00:57:04] It's lavender. It's a lavender pill. That's all that's in. It is lavender. It's concentrated. It's concentrated. Right. Small capsule that is easy to swallow. Okay. That's what I would need. Yep. Right. So it's in a small, easy to swallow capsule. It's just lavender so you can feel good knowing mm-hmm. , that that's all you're taking. [00:57:22] Yeah. But it really does help. Like I have been taking it every morning. And on the days that I take it, I can tell that I feel much calmer, much less stressed. On the package it says you should take it twice a day. So I think if you were you know, really wanting to be more serious, you could take it twice a day if you were unsure about trying medication. [00:57:42] This could be a good place to start. If you were unsure for one of your kids, this could, this could be a good place to start for one of them too. I just think we more people need to know about it because I had, I had never heard about it until the psychiatrist recommended it, and I just think like, and it gets all these great reviews, so I just think, why [00:58:00] don't, maybe more people already knew about it and I just didn't. [00:58:02] Yeah, right. But. It has really been helpful for me and some of my kids. I was gonna say maybe  [00:58:08] Maren: it's everybody in Europe who's, who's given it all those high stars. I mean, that's, that's amazing.  [00:58:13] Angela: Yeah. So, Well, I'm  [00:58:16] Maren: so glad that you, have you found something for, you know, for Totally. There's so many of, I mean, there are so many of us I think that who could use. [00:58:23] Something like that without a prescription would be  [00:58:25] Angela: great. Mm-hmm. so great. So thank you. And it's just, it's a first, It's, I know it's hard to try medication if you haven't. It is before, it's a hard first step. And so like this, this is something you could try before that if you Yeah,  [00:58:37] Maren: yeah. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. .  [00:58:39] We wanna thank our three sponsors, Blossom and Root Out School and Night Zookeeper. Be sure to check out their links in our  [00:58:49] Angela: show. This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Se and Marrin Gors. [00:58:55] We are listeners supported to get extra content and the Back to School Summit free with your [00:59:00] membership. Go to patreon.com/homeschool on refined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive booklist@homeschoolonfi.com slash newsletter. You can find Marron on Instagram at unrefined marron and at Always Learning with Marron, and you can find Angela. [00:59:18] Unrefined. Angela

Join us as we talk to Robyn Robertson about homeschooling, self-directed learning, world schooling and teens. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors   We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings:   Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase   Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class    Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription  LTWs    Maren: Weiman Stainless Steel Cleaner   Angela: Libro.fm and All My Rage by Sabaa Tahir   Connect with us!  Visit our website  Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren  Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com   Complete Episode Transcript   [00:00:00] Maren: Hi, we're Maren and Angela of Homeschool, Unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents, and podcasters, together with our master's degrees in 20 years combined homeschooling. We are here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:29] Angela: At Homeschool Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to and elevating LGBTQ Plus and BIPOC Voices.  [00:00:49] Maren: We are here to encourage and support you, whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran. [00:00:55] Whether you love curriculum or you're an unschooler, whether all your kids are at [00:01:00] home or all your kids are in school or somewhere in between, wherever you are on your journey, we're the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great,  [00:01:07] Angela: and so are your kids. This is episode 1 97, How We Homeschool with Robyn Robertson. [00:01:14] We are gonna talk about that in just a minute. Mm-hmm. . And then we're gonna end like we always do with our lt. Ws Loving this week. Hello Mar. Hello. How are you doing great. Great to see you.  [00:01:28] Maren: Yes, and you too. We are so excited to just tell you a little bit or remind you, actually, you've probably heard this, but if you sign up for our newsletter right now, you are going to get a free gift that we have created lovingly and Caringly for you. [00:01:43] It is a top 100 inclusive book list and you know, we're passionate about reading. And to our kids. And we love books and we love finding inclusive books and this, so this book is like, has been tailored from our years of [00:02:00] experience reading. And we just really wanted to share this with you. So join our newsletter today and you were gonna get that  [00:02:06] Angela: for free. [00:02:07] Yes, and we have all different age groups. We have audio books, we have graphic novels, so it is should be something for everyone. [00:02:18] Taking online classes is one way to take the burden off you and outsource something your child wants to learn. That's why we love Out School. We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. [00:02:39] Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their. Connect with diverse peers from around the world and take an active role in leading their learning out. School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible [00:03:00] live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning free. [00:03:05] Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with the code. Unrefined.  [00:03:17] Maren: We know that teaching, writing and reading can be a struggle night. Zookeeper is here to help. Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may be just what you've been looking for. [00:03:35] Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills, all while having fun at the same time. Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors, [00:04:00] and the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn together. [00:04:05] If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. When you register, you'll get a seven. Risk free trial as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. That's a great  [00:04:22] Angela: deal if you ask. We know that finding a curriculum that fits your unique needs can be a challenge. [00:04:29] Have you tried Blossom and Root yet? Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum, focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. Blossom and WRI has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschool families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. [00:04:53] Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is [00:05:00] currently in development as of August, 2022. Volume one is available for purchase, and volume two is available on pre. All profits from this history curriculum. A river of voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. [00:05:16] You can find ex examples, samples, scope, and sequences, and information about each of their levels online@blossomandroot.com. You can also find them in on Instagram at Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your purchase. [00:05:40] Maren: All right. We would like to introduce you to Robyn Robertson. Robyn Robertson is an unschooling mom to two kids. Podcast host, business owner and public school board trustee. Robyn, her husband and their two kids started their world schooling [00:06:00] journey in 2012. Her experiences traveling while home educating had Robyn questioning her past beliefs around parenting, how we learn and the education system. [00:06:12] Today, Robyn advocates politically for home education and self-directed. She combines that experience, knowledge, and curiosity in her mentoring, working with families to help them envision and create their own unique  [00:06:27] Angela: learning paths. [00:06:28] Please enjoy our conversation with Robyn. [00:06:31] Well, hello Robyn. Welcome to Homeschool Unrefined.  [00:06:35] Robyn: Hi Angela. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be on your podcast. I'm a, I'm a listener,  [00:06:40] Angela: so Oh, you are? Okay. That's great. I'm so glad to have you and I know you have your own podcast too, and we've just never connected until now. I know some of our listeners listen and so I'm just really glad to be able to connect. [00:06:54] Robyn: Me too. Thank you for,  [00:06:56] Angela: So for people who don't know you or who maybe don't listen to your podcast, [00:07:00] can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your family and your work and things like.  [00:07:05] Robyn: Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Robin Robertson . Yeah. And I'm the creator and host of the podcast, Honey. I'm homeschooling the kids. [00:07:13] I'm an unschooling parent to two kids who are now teenagers. We live in northern Alberta, Canada, but we began this homeschool journey as world schoolers. We wanted to travel with our kids, and that's the beginning. Of the journey. And honestly, we thought we would be doing this thing for like a year at the most. [00:07:33] Yeah. . And then everything would be going, like, we'd go back to school and all that sort of stuff. Okay. But obviously it's 10 years later. Okay. And we're still kind of doing, creating our own unique learning journey and You know, the podcast is a big part of that where, But a lot of my purpose is sharing that the stories of families that are creating their unique learning journeys, just to provide the example and inspiration that it can be done. [00:07:56] Yeah. Families have been doing it, that kids have grown up [00:08:00] doing it, have been successful and I wanna say successful in our. Different ways. I know there's not just a standard idea that I, or maybe there is, but I think that's shifting. Mm-hmm. . So, you know, that's really what I do. I advocate for self-directed learning locally within my community within the homeschooling community. [00:08:18] But really I advocate for kids. Yeah. And families that wanna create their own unique learning.  [00:08:24] Angela: Yeah. That's awesome. So I'm really interested in that because you, did you go on a big trip for that first year you were traveling around?  [00:08:33] Robyn: We actually, we moved to Jamaica. Oh, okay. For a little over half a year. [00:08:38] My family, my dad is from Jamaica, so we actually moved back in with that side of the family and lived there. Okay. And then we ended up going to South Korea for a year, a little over  [00:08:48] Angela: a year. Wow. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And at that point you were, you thought. This, we'll do this for a little while and then when we come back, our kids will go into school. [00:08:58] That was your plan originally? [00:09:00] Yep.  [00:09:00] Robyn: That was the, I took six months leave of absence for my job. . Okay. told everyone I would be back in six months. Okay. Yeah, and we thought we would, you know, go traveling. We go to Jamaica first, and then we would decide what we would wanna do. . Yeah. And we thought we'd come back. [00:09:15] My kids would go back to school, we'd go back to our house and, you know, we'd be happy with a little bit of a, a change in our rhythm. At that time, we, we needed to make a change actually. Yeah. But we, we found out our change needed to be bigger than what we planned it to  [00:09:30] Angela: be. So, Or in the other direction, you know? [00:09:33] Yes. Like, yeah. Yeah. So what about that year or year and a half made you change your mind? And decide to keep going. Keep homeschooling or, Yeah, keep, keep homeschool.  [00:09:46] Robyn: You know, it was my kids. Mm-hmm. really, we, you know, we, my husband and I had traveled a lot before. Okay. And we, when we began our family, we knew it was something we wanted to eventually continue doing. [00:09:57] So my dad's from Jamaica, my mom's from Canada. [00:10:00] Okay. I've lived all over the world from like my. My, my parents because of my dad's work, because my parents traveled. And then as I became an adult, a young adult, I started traveling on my own for school and then just experience. And so it was very much having a multicultural viewpoint of the world was very, a much a normal thing for me because of my family history. [00:10:24] But just to begin with that so my viewpoint was always a little bit different and I, it was really important to me that my kids also have a perspective, especially because we have a very diverse family. Mm-hmm. . And my husband was the same as well. And the way that he, you know, he had, he had loved our travel experiences. [00:10:41] He wanted to travel himself, so he did as well. And then we just felt it was something that we wanted our family to do. And then when we decided to travel, We were, we were at a point in our life where we knew our family needed a change. We were doing the work, you know, we're busy working. Yeah. My husband was building a [00:11:00] business. [00:11:00] I actually worked at the school that my kids went to, which was nice. But it was like, We, you know, our week was spent with work, school, getting ready for all of that stuff, activities, barely having supp or having a bath, going to bed, doing it all over again. Sunday, I grocery shop, clean up the house and I was tired. [00:11:19] Like Saturday was sports and you know, all those mm-hmm. and we were like, we need to, And our kids were like getting the leftovers essentially. Yeah. You know, they were getting just those minutes. Energy that I could maybe, you know, do with them. And it's like, well let's just watch some TV kind of thing. [00:11:36] Yeah, yeah. Cuz you're so tired, . Yeah. And so we needed to, we needed to do something different. So my husband was the one who said, Well, why don't we first? He said, Why don't we go to Jamaica? You know, let's, we want to travel. Let's just try, you know, if it doesn't work, we can just come home. Right? Yeah, totally. [00:11:52] And he was like, It'll be easy. You're, you know, we'll live with family there and. And then, you know, at least it will be like an easy [00:12:00] entry and we can homeschool the kids . Like we can homeschool. It's no problem. And his business was mobile so he could work from anywhere. So we started doing that and, but the thing was, is. [00:12:15] My kids were, well, one, we finished our homeschool work that the school had sent us within like the first month. It was six months of work and we finished it in like a month, and that was only doing a few hours every morning. Okay. Our rule was, By the time lunchtime hits it's free game. Like, yeah, free play. [00:12:34] We're gonna spend the afternoons at the beach, we'll go visiting family. It's just exploring, having fun. And what happened was is my kids, even when the work was done, my kids in their play time, in their free time, and then the time after the, the quote unquote school work was done. They were even more engaged. [00:12:54] They were asking so many questions about the world around them and wanting to find out more [00:13:00] that it was one of those times where I was in that experience and began to understand that idea that learning is separate from school. School and learning are not always. That it doesn't have to look like a textbook and classroom, that actually you can be absolutely engaged and internally motivated and love learning at any time of the day. [00:13:24] Mm-hmm. , especially when you're engaged in play freedom something that you're, you know, you are loving to do and joy and. The more we, our life looked like that. Mm-hmm. , It was like the more my kids seemed to be learning. Yeah. So everything that I understood before seemed to really contradict almost. [00:13:45] Yeah. And so that's kind of the beginning of how we started or to continued homeschooling. Yeah. And then by the time we got back to Canada not where we were living, but actually here where we are now. My kids said to me one day, [00:14:00] they were like, We don't wanna go back to school. Hmm. Interesting. We wanna keep homeschooling. [00:14:05] Mm-hmm. and I had wanted to, but I also didn't want to put it on them like, We're gonna keep homeschooling. We can't go back to school. We'd always had that conversation. It would always be open. And so once they said, No, we wanna, we, we have no desire to go back to school. We wanna keep homeschooling. We were like, Okay, we'll keep doing it as long as it works for us and as long as you wanna do that. [00:14:24] And yeah. So  [00:14:26] Angela: your, your experience of them being more authentically involved in their learning when you were doing self-directed things and when you were homeschooling, when you were traveling mm-hmm. is what led you to do it. It's like you had the, you had confidence cuz you saw, you saw with your own eyes and your own experience that this was really good and that they were learning a  [00:14:46] Robyn: lot. [00:14:47] That's exactly it.  [00:14:48] Angela: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, and you had a background in schools and so you saw it, you definitely in your, you know, you're a product of the school system I'm sure too, right? Yeah. So was it [00:15:00] hard for you to let go of some of those more traditional school type things like you know, like You know, we need to, we actually do though, need to be doing some sitting down and writing, or we actually do need to be doing some homework or, I don't know, what were, were there things that you had a hard time letting go of? [00:15:22] Robyn: Oh yeah, of course. Okay. I think , I think all of us do. Right? And my husband as well too, right? Yeah. I, you know, there were times where I was, you know, maybe like, No, we're not gonna, we don't have anything planned for today. And my husband would like, Don't you think the kids should do some writing? Yeah. [00:15:38] Like, don't you think like, after they're watching Magic School Bus, they should maybe do a summary on what they, you know, what they learn? Kind of, you know, that kinda thing. And yeah, I absolutely did. I think that's pretty normal for every homeschooling parent you wanna get in some reading and math lessons as much as you can just sneak it in here and there. [00:15:55] Yeah. Yeah. But also I, you know, where we are from in Canada, it's [00:16:00] fairly highly regulated. Canada itself is go very government regulated. Okay. The province that we live in the way we were registered, we actually had to follow our provincial curriculum. So there were still checks and balances at the end of Sure. [00:16:12] The throughout we had to follow. But there is an option where you can opt out and I didn't do that because I didn't, you know, I didn't think it was okay. . Yeah. You know, I wanted to have that security, but by the time my son was in third grade, he was about, yeah, he was probably about nine. He, you know, it was kind of like near the end of the school year and I wanted to go through all of the curriculum checks, like, you know, let's make sure we covered this and this and this and that year, third grade, where we live, there is a area of social studies that is like a world broadening your worldview. [00:16:51] And so they have specific country you have to study in order to get an idea of the world kind of. Yep. The I, the general idea is that we are [00:17:00] citizens of the world and we have similarities and differences from people all around around us. Sure. Yep. And so they give you the countries to study. And we hadn't studied those countries. [00:17:09] And when I brought them to my son, he was like, I don't wanna study those countries, . And he, and he asked me, he was like, Why do I have to study these? And I told them, Because the curriculum says you have to, Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , And he just kind of looked at me like, that makes no sense whatsoever. Like, so basically he just said, So this says I have to do it, so that's why I have to do it. [00:17:33] Even though I've been studying, you know, I've been learning about Borneo and Tahiti because I wanna learn about those spaces because of Right. You know, I'm, there's things that I relate to and those that I'm interested in. Mm-hmm. , So I've been learning about those places for the last six months. Mm-hmm. [00:17:49] but doesn't that count? Yeah. And I was like, this is a good argument. He brought Yeah. . Yeah. Right. And I, I had no response, like no valid response where I felt to my core like, you know [00:18:00] what? I disagree. This is know, this is why. Yeah. So that was the last year and after that we opted out of following any curriculum. [00:18:08] Oh, okay. Eventual curriculum. We, we checked off the box where we said we no longer will be doing. Following this. And, and then I think that was a full step of, we're just on our own.  [00:18:20] Angela: Right. And so what kind of do you have a label for your type of homeschooling right now? Like what kind of homeschooler would you say that you are now? [00:18:28] Robyn: We're  [00:18:28] Angela: unschoolers. You're unschoolers, Okay. Yeah. And did you Was that more gradual, like after the third grade year when you opted out? Did you feel like you fully jumped into that or were you still was, this has been a gradual change for you?  [00:18:42] Robyn: Oh, it's been a gradual change, yeah.  [00:18:44] Angela: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. [00:18:45] Okay. And so I would say that. To maybe a lot of our listeners that might sound unique, just because I know you have teens now. Your kids are now teens. Mm-hmm. , and so you're still unschooling. Can you tell us what that looks like? We get this question [00:19:00] a lot, and so I would love to hear from you what that looks like for your teens. [00:19:06] Robyn: Oh yeah. I get this question too, and it's kind of hard to, you know, people want it, put it in a nice like package and bow and then give it to you when unschooling can't be packaged and put a bow on top and given to you because it's so unique to the learner. Yeah. I think the easiest way to define unschooling, which I, I usually start with, if we're looking at learning, it's when the learner decides the how. [00:19:28] What, where, and what of their learning. The learner decides that, okay, and they're internally motivated with their own personal why. Mm. So coming from that place it's very much learner directed or my, you know, my, my children, I, I, I call myself an end schooler as well cuz I'm a learner in our family for sure. [00:19:48] Call my husband is a learner. Yeah. So all of our learning is self-directed in that way. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm . So what it looks like is, you know, my kids, for example, my youngest is 13. [00:20:00] And you know, she has her really, it's supporting their interests and their curiosities. So, you know, a lot of it is. You know, we're in conversation all the time. [00:20:10] Mm-hmm. , we are you know, I, it's observation. Mm-hmm. , it's noticing, it's being a, a listening parent that listens and hears mm-hmm. that doesn't always speak because I, I want to understand what they're interested in, what they're curious about, and usually, especially after these, They are very good at communicating. [00:20:30] You know, I'd really like to learn more about this, or I'd really like to do this, or, you know, in our conversations we were doing this last year and I felt like maybe it worked for my brother, but it didn't work for me and I wanna do something differently. Yeah. So for my daughter, for example, she's really into. [00:20:44] Sports team sports. She plays volleyball, she plays softball. She's snowboards, so a lot of her activities are centered around her sports and training. Mm-hmm. . So that of course takes time. She's a musician, so she does a lot with guitar songwriting. Right now she's [00:21:00] doing a music theory course because she plays. [00:21:03] But she doesn't know how to read notes yet. So that was her focus this year is she wants to be able to read music. Yeah. So she's doing a course in that. And, you know, things like, she's very creative. She loves to read. She always has like, you know, she reads novels like by the minute. Awesome. It seems like so really, You know, knowing their interests for the long term and for the year or for the month, and I'm the support person that helps 'em with resources. [00:21:30] I'm the chauffeur, I'm the person who encourages and really I think unschooling, and I think this is missed. A lot of times we talk about the learning part of it, but unschooling by supporting the learner. The biggest part of it is building the relationship with our family and kids, because I think the biggest part of unschooling that sometimes is overlooked is the trust, and that's the hardest part as well. [00:21:55] Trusting our kids cuz we usually think kids aren't gonna make a good decision, they're gonna [00:22:00] choose wrong, They're going, you know, they don't understand. So, mm-hmm. , building that trust and knowing, and for our kids to know that they are trusted, that they're. Their environment is safe. Mm-hmm. , it's, they're loved and validated, so they will ask those questions. [00:22:18] They will be, you know, confident to try things and try new experiences because they know even if it is a mistake or doesn't work, it's not the end of the world. It's a learning experience. So that's really the biggest part of our unschooling, is building that foundation. For my son, he's older, so he has always been someone who's very focused on specific things. [00:22:42] His personality is that way. He been animals since he was like tiny, like an infant, almost like he. Bird, I think was one of his first words. Wow. And, and so he's always been dedicated to learning about wildlife and ecology and animals. And [00:23:00] that now has taken him to a path where he, like, he works in, in, in the field. [00:23:06] He works for a wildlife outfitters. And this is the second season for six months under the year he's out in the wilderness. And he helps, he's learning to be a guide, a wildlife. Wow. And so they're out on very unique terrain. Mm-hmm. , you know, working with international clients, they do things like you know, their area is very unique to the animals that are there. [00:23:28] Mm-hmm. . So that's also why it's a unique outfitters, but, you know, supporting that interest and helping him to get connected with real life experiences is another big part of unschooling. Yeah, so, so it's very broad, but that's what it looks like for our family  [00:23:44] Angela: and that sounds amazing. I'm so glad you explained all that. So the thing I noticed when you were explaining that is these experiences for your kids, whether it's what, what your son's doing with the wildlife outfitter or all the different things that your daughter's doing with the sports [00:24:00] and the music and just being creative and all of that. They would not be able to do that if they were in school. [00:24:05] They just, There wouldn't be time. There wouldn't be time. . Yeah. And energy. They would be exhausted. From exerting themselves all day, doing things that they're not really that interested in. And then so to have the time at at night to come home or on the weekends and do those things, they might be able to do some of them, but it wouldn't be like this deep a deep experience into something that they're truly interested in and passionate about. [00:24:30] And that is where the real learning happens. It's just, you know that that's where the real learning happens and I just think you are giving your kids such a gift and that they have these opportunities to go deep into things that they're passionate about. I think, I think kids who are in school and mine are this year, I think kids who are in school have a hard time with harder time with that. [00:24:52] They come become like, Kind of general, like they know a little bit about a lot of things. Mm-hmm. and they have a hard [00:25:00] time pinning down like, what am I really interested in? Because they're not spending time doing tho their interests as much. Right. Yeah. And so I just, and so sometimes then they're like, Well, I wanna go to college, but I don't know what I wanna do. [00:25:11] I mean, that was me so. So I relate to that. Like it would've been great as a teen when you have all that energy and all that excitement and like you're ready for some intensity in something. Yeah. To be able to do that, to be able to like gear it towards the thing you're into. I. Your son, you know, he's known for a long time that he is interested in animals, but some kids wouldn't know that. [00:25:34] And so this would be a good time to like explore and try. Like maybe they try one job and they're, they realize, well, that was a good experience, but I'm not really into that. I'm gonna try this other thing. You know? And you have the time and energy and freedom to do those things. I just think that is a real gift. [00:25:51] And I just I think it sounds dreamy as a team, like really dreamy . So is there anything that [00:26:00] is challenging about it for you or your kids that you wish could be different or were a challenge?  [00:26:07] Robyn: Let me see. I think probably. You know, I think, you know, it's interesting. I think it is a challenge, but it isn't a challenge partly because where we live, Okay. [00:26:19] Is fairly remote. So, you know, my kids do are very social. They have a lot of friends. Actually, my daughter, because of sports, most of her friends go to school. Actually now the majority of her friends. So sometimes I think it would be nice just to be physically closer to more unschoolers, more self-directed learners who just get or understand our lifestyle a little bit more. [00:26:42] Mm-hmm. . For example, like my daughter will say, you know, I don't understand why my friends who go to school don't like to read. Yeah. Cause she would love to have like a discussion on books, . Yeah. Right. You know, on the books that she reads. But usually they tell her, I don't, I hate reading. Like, we have to read this book that my teacher made us read, Right? [00:26:57] Mm-hmm. . So I know sometimes they say they miss the [00:27:00] conversations with maybe kids around their age group that they'd like to have, that they can have with adults, which is fantastic. Yeah. But sometimes those things, they. But saying that as well, I know some of their closest friends are different ages, Like they both have, their closest friends are a lot older than them, and I think that just is what happens with the circumstances of their life and living as well. [00:27:24] But you know, I think also that's our remoteness is just where we are. Yeah. And there's not a lot of people just, there's not  [00:27:31] Angela: where we're, ok. Yeah. So when she's doing sports and stuff, that's at like the nearest town. That you're close  [00:27:37] Robyn: to? Yeah, we do a lot of driving and especially if she's doing club or she actually plays for school team right now. [00:27:44] Okay, okay. Which is fantastic. So homeschoolers can play with, they can try out for school teams. So right now she's playing volleyball with our local junior high high school team. And then she'll, once that season is done, she starts club. And, but it's just, yeah. And I think most parents who. [00:28:00] Do things like club volleyball or basketball or anything like that. [00:28:03] There's a lot of traveling. They're driving. Yeah.  [00:28:06] Angela: Whether you're in homeschool or, or school or, Yeah. There's just a lot of driving. Yeah. So is it, so are you finding community then with people, not with a lot of other homeschoolers, but with more just like people in your community who maybe do other activities that your kids are in? [00:28:25] Robyn: Yeah, we do, You know, still we have a very strong homeschooling community do. It's very spread out. We do. Okay. Yeah, that's great. It's absolutely grown over the last few years, but you know, a lot of people are an hour and a half away. You know, we're just kind of that radius. But especially now, everyone is trying to gather as much as possible and meet, connect. [00:28:45] Mm-hmm. . So there are some fantastic, Some of my closest friends locally are either unschooling or homeschooling moms, so we absolutely have. Which is good. But yeah, we just do our best to make it work and to come together and things like online, you [00:29:00] know, with my podcast, I have a really large community and have fantastic friends who, you know, I've actually never met in person yet. [00:29:06] Right. But we talk. Almost every day, or we talk regularly online as well. And hopefully soon in the near future I'll be able to see them face to face. .  [00:29:16] Angela: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes some. Ugh, something that we try and tell our listeners is you know, you don't always have to find community with other homeschoolers who live in your town. [00:29:25] You know mm-hmm. And that it's okay to, you know, ha have be friends with your neighbors or people who are doing the same activities as your kids or in other ways. And then also those online friendships are not, those are real. Mm-hmm. , those are real and valuable, and not just for the adults, but kids too, you know? [00:29:44] Yeah. I dunno if your kids have online friends, mind you, and. Those are really valuable friendships as well, and I just think it's an advantage to living in the time that we live in, that we can like connect with people who might be a lot like us, but who live far away because there [00:30:00] might not be that many people who are a lot like us, who are really in proximity to  [00:30:04] Robyn: us. [00:30:04] Right? Yes, Angela, That's absolutely true. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:30:08] Angela: So do you have like a ? I'm asking this, but I'm kind of  [00:30:13] Robyn: you giggle before you ask. You,  [00:30:15] Angela: going before I'm asking me, do you have a typical day or week ? What, And if you do, what does that look like for you?  [00:30:20] Robyn: No, not really. , not really. [00:30:22] Okay. Okay. No, I, we do so I mean, I think it changes with the season. Okay. Honestly. So I also work apart from my podcast and working at home from that. I also am actually a public school board Trustee . Oh, okay. So I'm a locally elected official. Oh, awesome. So, It gives me good perspective because then I really get the inside knowledge on our public school system, especially locally within our area and division. [00:30:47] So I do, I probably work out of the home once or twice a week. Okay. So, you know, and that depends sometimes. And then, and then also my schedule works around my kids as well, [00:31:00] so coordinating You know, we're usually the mornings I'm with my kids or I mean, usually my daughter, cause my son's just not home very much anymore. [00:31:09] Yeah. But I'm there to, you know, whatever she needs support in whatever she wants to chat about. We usually like sit on the couch in the mornings and, you know, she loves, she likes math. She does Khan Academy for math, so. Okay. I know people always ask what about she's, but she does it. She. She likes it. [00:31:27] She has her goals that she sets every year, every month for it. And usually she just likes me to hang out with her. So she has questions and we discuss everything. Like, we'll watch a video, talk about it, she'll do an exercise or quiz and we'll talk about it. Okay. So things like that, I set aside time in the mornings to, to be there for my kids. [00:31:45] Yeah. And then usually the afternoons. You know, work afternoons or you know, we have a day a week where maybe we'll go exploring or visiting. Mm-hmm. or connecting. And then, you know, right now when it is sports season, it's [00:32:00] usually, you know, my daughter's practicing or training. Either like Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays she has off. [00:32:09] And then Friday, Saturdays are usually games and tournaments. Wow. So the week gets busy. And then in the wintertime we see in snowboard. So we actually spend a lot of time out in the mountains during the winter time. That's so great  [00:32:21] Angela: doing that. So, That's so great. I love that for you and I, you know, we're in Minnesota and so it, it's cold here too. [00:32:29] We don't have the mountains . But just being able to live and live well in your area and take advantage of thing, the snow. I mean, you have to, you have to in the  [00:32:40] Robyn: winter. You kind of gotta embrace it. Yeah. You have to it or  [00:32:43] Angela: you embrace it. Yeah. You either embrace, embrace, like different sports, snow sports, there's a lot of them. [00:32:48] Or you're gonna be stuck inside for a long time. So, so I think that's great that you do that. That is really, really awesome. I love it. So what are you working on right [00:33:00] now that we can let our listeners know about or how  [00:33:02] Robyn: can they find you? Well definitely go to any podcast player unless, and look for honey. [00:33:07] I'm homeschooling the kids. You can find me there. My website as well. Yeah. I, I usually have events or something special going on through the year, so right now, like as we speak, it's October, my masterclass. I do a very, Intimate small group masterclass twice a year and right now fall, This is my time. [00:33:27] We're, we're just beginning that. Mm-hmm. . So that's always awesome on, I started it last year. It's been fantastic for everyone, including me. Yeah. I think everything is a learning process for me. I'm always a student. Whenever I approach anything, so I'll be running another one in the new year in spring. [00:33:46] Okay. So you can contact me to get on the wait list if you're interested in something like that. A good friend of mine, Kelly or Edwards, from the 90 Minute School Day, we do a homeschool summit every year. So we're actually, we do it every. Ring. We actually host it through the app [00:34:00] Clubhouse. Okay. I have a club on that app, Honey Am Homeschooling Club. [00:34:04] So through that app we host a homeschooling summit where we have keynote speakers. There's a theme every year, like a three part theme. And so now is a time where we start planning and getting everything together for the summit. So that's gonna be March, 2023. Okay. That's a free summit to attend. And we have like giveaways and prizes and it's actually a great, that's. [00:34:30] Great to summit. Yeah, so that's, you know, my clubhouse runs. We have discussions three times a week for homeschoolers, non schoolers, and that's something that's open for anyone to join and be part of those live discussions. We do record them and that goes on through the year. And otherwise I do support parents one-on-one if I'm not doing my masterclass or Summit [00:34:51] I do have some, you know, some time where I set aside and I mentor parents as well one-on-one. So That's great. That's usually what I have going on. Building [00:35:00] That's a  [00:35:00] Angela: lot's great. That's a lot. That's a lot. Yeah. And you're with your kids, so.  [00:35:04] Robyn: Yeah. And that's priority, honestly. Right? For  [00:35:07] Angela: sure. For sure. Well, it was really great having you and I'm so glad that our listeners got to hear from you and thank you for  [00:35:13] Robyn: being. [00:35:14] Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. [00:35:17] Angela: All right, let's move on to our lt. Ws. All right. Yes, Mar, what are you loving this week? Okay. I  [00:35:25] Maren: am loving something that I should have gotten years ago. Years ago, . Okay. I just discovered it in 2022. All right. It is a stainless steel cleaner appliance pool. Oh,  [00:35:40] Angela: oh, okay. Yes, yes. The  [00:35:41] Maren: brand name is Wyman. Okay. [00:35:44] And it's a stainless steel cleaner and polish. It's just a spray. Very simple. It removes fingerprints, it removes residue, watermarks, grease, that kind of stuff. And it is [00:36:00] something that I've, I feel like I've been putting  [00:36:02] Angela: up with kind of for like, Oh  [00:36:03] Maren: yeah. I think we, I think we got our first. Stainless steel appliance in like 2015 when we moved [00:36:10] When we moved. Right. Ok. So it's been seven years. Yeah. Of looking at fingerprints on stainless steel appliances, , and so here we are. And nothing really, I, nothing else really works. Like you can't just clean that stuff off.  [00:36:24] Angela: Just doesn't come off. You can't normally, So. Okay. , I feel like a, See, I have not jumped on this. [00:36:32] Okay, well I thought I was the last one, so not the last one. So bad, . But I have to tell you, Jeremy is like, he wants stainless steel appliance cleaner, and I'm like, Why? Who cares? .  [00:36:42] Maren: That is so funny. That's really interesting because usually I, you know, I, I'm, I, if you knew Angela and I, if all of you listened, knew Angela, you might think that I would be the one who cared a lot less about this, but I really do. [00:36:56] I, I, like, I cleaned my kitchen and I'm like, I did [00:37:00] all that work and  [00:37:01] Angela: it, you know, and can still see like water spots when you. Yeah, exactly. Or other junk  [00:37:08] Maren: drinks. Yeah. You know, like, I may have cleaned it off, but it just looks gross.  [00:37:11] Angela: I get it. I'm like, it's just gonna get dirty again. I d I know . No, but  [00:37:16] Maren: seriously, this makes it look brand new. [00:37:18] Oh, I bet. It's amazing. It's so amazing. You might, and it just like, it's like the finishing touch, but you don, you do have to still. There's still gross stuff, sticky stuff that doesn't, you know, that's not what this is for. Oh, no. Sticky polish fingers. Yeah, this is like a Polish. It just shines it up. It makes it look nice. [00:37:35] Okay. Okay.  [00:37:36] Angela: Gotcha.  [00:37:37] Maren: And. It's just, I don't know. It makes me feel so happy because That's awesome. I'm seriously, for seven years, it's, Hasn't , , Like a week after we got into appliances, it was, they were gross and they stayed gross. Oh. So yeah.  [00:37:51] Angela: Yeah. Till this year. I get it. I mean, that is one downside to stainless steel appliances. [00:37:56] Maren: It is, yeah. Yeah. And it's super easy. Like it took, you [00:38:00] know, it takes five minutes to clean your appliances, and then they just, it just like brightens everything up. I love it.  [00:38:04] Angela: Okay. I should, should probably do that. Do you put it, do you have a stainless steel sink?  [00:38:10] Maren: I do, and I haven't tried it in there and,  [00:38:12] Angela: but I should, you know, it's the one area I, I could possibly  [00:38:15] Maren: do. [00:38:15] You know what I used in there? What, what is the magic erasers? Yeah. I use that in my  [00:38:21] Angela: sink and it works great in a stainless steel sink. Yes. Interesting. Yeah. Okay.  [00:38:28] Maren: It gets out a lot. It's amazing. Okay. Well, I don't know. This would do that too. Maybe it would. Okay. You  [00:38:34] Angela: would. Okay. Well, I'll tell Jeremy all about your new product by Wing [00:38:41] Maren: Sounds good. All right. Angela, what are you living this  [00:38:43] Angela: week? Okay, so you have probably heard me talk about bookshop.org before. Bookshop.org is a place that you can order all of your books. So, and this is like an alternative to Amazon, and they support independent bookstores through bookshop.org. [00:38:59] So [00:39:00] you, once you purchase a book on bookshop, you, or before you purchase a book, you choose which independent bookstore you would like the proceeds to go to. Yes. And so a lot of independent, independent bookstores around the country. bookshop.org, like storefront basically. So it's like shopping online for them. [00:39:21] Maren: Right. And like all of our affiliate links for books  [00:39:23] Angela: go to Yes. bookshop.org too. Right? Cause we have our own, We have a shop too. But, and I've been using, this is just, you know, I still use Amazon. Of course. I, I have to, but you know. Mm-hmm. . I definitely have a love hate relationship with Amazon because I love. [00:39:39] I mean, it's so convenient, right? Yeah. But then also I don't like supporting Amazon, and so this is just one way that I can That I can like move a gr set of purchases over like every time I need a book, I just go to bookshop. Yep. Okay. So I've been doing that for a few years. It's been great. What I hadn't done yet and what I wanna tell you all about [00:40:00] is their audio books. [00:40:01] I have still been using audio audible for audio books. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And I've been feeling kind guilty about it a little bit because a lot of my book purchases are audio books. Right. But Bookshop has their own audio book that's. Part component. Yeah, it's called Libro fm. It's an app just like Audible. [00:40:23] You can get a subscription just like Audible, except it's supporting an independent bookstore. And so I just decided to do it like a few weeks ago and it's amazing. I love it. And right now they have a deal where if you join libro FM right now, you get two free audiobook. So that's how I did it. When I joined, I got two free audiobook books. [00:40:44] And I wanna tell you about one of them, which I have been loving you too. Yes. It's called All My Rage. Ooh, By, I'm interested .  [00:40:53] Maren: Okay.  [00:40:54] Angela: By Saba to here. Okay. Okay. This is a fiction y a book, [00:41:00] but love it. It is really, really well done. It is about two Pakistani teenagers. Mm-hmm. who are family friends as they're growing up in. [00:41:11] California. And there's just a lot of, there's all the trigger warnings possible probably are in this book because it's really sad. So I don't know that you would like it mind because it's Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very sad. But I'm in the sad books. , I'm into sad books. I'm into like Just hearing real true stories and Yes. [00:41:30] Of people and getting, getting through hard things. So for sure that's what this is. And there's, it's, But the, but the thing is, it's so well written. I know it's y and I hate to say this, but it doesn't seem like y a, it's only Y because the characters are in high school. Okay. But it's just. Because a lot of ye is really well written. [00:41:50] So this is a really well written ye book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it is beautiful on audio. So you've on  [00:41:58] Maren: audio. Okay. That's great to [00:42:00] know about audio too. But you've introduced me to so many good y eight books,  [00:42:05] Angela: so I mean, you could try, I trust you on this because you might like the story because also it's like you're learning about a culture that you're, for me, that I'm not as familiar with, and so that also is, I really liked learning about that. [00:42:17] Maren: Yeah. That's also some of my favorite reading is just  [00:42:20] Angela: reading so different cultures for sure. You so what? Sad you might you might be okay with it. Yeah, I dunno. So anyway, it's really good. So I got that on LiRo fm, so you know, that's so awesome. Even if you don't end up using LiRo fm, you could just go over and get your two free audio books right now you get two free audiobook. [00:42:38] Yeah, I'm going. Thank  [00:42:40] Maren: you. You should. Thank you. I will. All right. We want to thank our three season sponsors Blossom and Root Out School and Night Zookeeper. Be sure to check out their links in our show notes.  [00:42:55] Angela: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Se and Marron Gorse. [00:43:00] We are listener supported. [00:43:01] To get extra content and the Back to School summit free with your membership, go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive book list@homeschoolunrefined.com slash new. You can find Mar on Instagram at Unrefined Mar and at Always Learning with Maron. [00:43:22] You can find Angela at unrefined. Angela.

Join us as we talk about what to do when kids push back. When our kids push back, it can look disrespectful, mean or lazy... and their communication can be sub-par. We're here to help you excavate what's underneath that non-preferred behavior and really support you and your kids in getting what you all need. We’ll also talk about if it’s ever ok to push our kids. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors   We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings:   Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase   Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class    Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription  LTWs    Maren: Blue Diamond Sweet Thai Chili Almonds   Angela: The Ordinary Peeling Solution   Connect with us!  Visit our website  Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren  Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com   Complete Episode Transcript   [00:00:09] Hi, we're Maren and Angela of Homeschool, Unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents, and podcasters together. With our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling experience, we're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:30] At Homeschool, Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing, and learning. Learning differences, mental health, self-care, listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and BIPOC voices. We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:52] Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at home or all [00:01:00] your kids are in school or somewhere in between, wherever you are on your journey, we are the voice in your head telling you, You're doing great and so are your kids. This episode is 1 96 when kids push back. [00:01:13] We'll talk about what to do when kids push back and whether it's ever okay to push your kids, and then we'll end like we always do with our lt. Ws loving this. Something new that we wanted to tell you about this season is we are doing transcripts for every single episode. [00:01:33] Mm-hmm. . Those you can find on our website or in the podcast app that you're using in the show notes. We're also doing video episodes, so if you'd rather watch us on video, you can do that too. Yeah. Yeah, and links to those are in the show notes and it's just on our YouTube page. We are starting something new this season where we are bringing you three new sponsors for the entire fall season. [00:01:58] We were very intentional about [00:02:00] who we chose for sponsors, and we really appreciate you taking the time to learn about them because we think they're just really good companies and they're giving us discount codes, so you'll wanna listen for those. We are so happy to work hard on this podcast and we appreciate the financial support in making it happen. [00:02:17] We know from experience that finding a homeschool history curriculum tells that tells stories from multiple perspectives is an almost impossible task. That's why we're excited about the work Blossom and Root is doing. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity. [00:02:40] Science, nature, literature, and the arts. Blossom and root has been gently encouraging in supporting homeschooling families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a [00:03:00] three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development. [00:03:08] As of August, 2022, volume one is available for purchase and volume two is a available on presale all profits from this history curriculum. A River of Voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. You can find samples, scope, and sequences and information about each of their levels. [00:03:33] Blossom and root.com. You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Route. Blossom and Root has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your purchase. Biology, Coloring Club, Math Frog, Life Cycle Grammar, Star Wars, the Old Republic. These are just a sampling of classes our kids have taken throughout school.[00:04:00]  [00:04:00] We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their interests, connect with diverse peers from around the world, and take an active role in leading their learning out. [00:04:24] School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning. Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined, and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with the code. [00:04:49] Unrefined teaching creative writing and reading in a way that is fun and accessible is a necessity. That's where Night Zookeeper comes in. Is your child a reluctant [00:05:00] writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may be just what you're looking for. [00:05:08] Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children aged six to 12 years. That uses a gamified and creative approach to help to keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills, all while having fun at the same time. Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors. [00:05:34] And the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn together. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. When you register, you'll get a seven day risk free trial, as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. [00:05:54] That's a great deal if you ask me. [00:05:56] All right, Marin. We are here [00:06:00] today for our main topic, which is about kids pushing back. Mm-hmm. . And this is, we chose this topic because we hear about it all the time. We hear, we hear about it all the time, and we hear it happening all the time. . Yeah. We experience it, we hear it happening. Yep. Yeah, , we experience it and hear that others are experiencing it often. [00:06:21] It may not be worded exactly like my child is pushing back, but it might be like, My kid doesn't wanna do this thing, or this subject is stressful, or something like that. Mm-hmm. . And so we wanted to talk about it, or it could be my kid. Being disrespectful or my kid is being really whiny, , you know, that's what it can, can sound like often. [00:06:44] Right, right. Or lazy. Or Right, right, right. Something, something like that. And we, we know that this is a common occurrence in for homeschool families. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. at different, lots of different ages and stages. [00:07:00] And we know that it's really tough, . Right. And I think it's probably, I mean, I think we know it's even more common probably in homeschool than if our kids were going to school. [00:07:12] They're with the person they trust and feel the most comfortable with. Our kids are gonna be their true selves in front of the, you know, their most, their most, the safest environment they have, which is for sure your home . For sure. For sure. And so really they're being vulnerable too when they're sharing, when they're, when they're pushing back, right? [00:07:33] I mean, you guys, we all know that kids Break down when they come home or when they're home because they feel it's a safe place to do that. And so it makes sense that this would also happen during homeschool time. And I do think it's one of the challenges that homeschool parents face because I think If you've heard about kids in school or if you've experienced your child in school, you know that sometimes they, there isn't that breakdown, there isn't that pushback. [00:07:59] Right.[00:08:00] With teachers or even you may have experienced it with like them doing a sports class or a co-op class or something. Yeah. But then when they're at home with you, they really do push back. And so I think that can be a special homeschool challenge. Oh yes. Yes, for sure. And it, it is true though, and I do think this happens too when my kids do go to do one of those classes or whatever and come back, they can sometimes talk about how much, you know, they can tell me how hard that thing was too. [00:08:30] Yeah, yeah. You know, But it's not until they come home sometimes, For sure. For sure. Yep. Yep. And so I think what can be really hard about this is you have had a vision of what your homeschool might look like or what you might be doing for a particular subject. Or you might have a vision of us all being like, happy together, or this be a really cozy setting. [00:08:52] And so you have this vision, you've spent time thinking about it, you've spent. Time planning, you spent [00:09:00] energy planning, you've probably spent money. Mm-hmm. on different curriculum or like different setup things and you know, your kid like may have been on board with whatever you're do you were doing at one time too. [00:09:13] Like they may have said like, Exactly, yeah, this is what I wanna do. Mm-hmm. and it may have worked for a while and then all of a sudden it doesn't. So I think that's what makes it especially hard is that you can feel like. Yes, it can felt very confusing. Cause we, you're like, I'm so in, we're so in tune with each other. [00:09:30] We did the whole thing that we, you know, like in our in our back to school summer, we talk a lot about having this meeting at the beginning of the year. You know? Yeah. Talk about your hopes and dreams and be really collaborative with each other. You may have done all of that . Yeah. Right. And you're like, I am a really tuning into my kid and I'm doing this thing. [00:09:47] Mm-hmm. , then they're still just like, No, I don't wanna do that. . Yeah. Oh, that's so hard. It's heartbreaking. Right, right. Or then it may also be just a thing that that is a real big priority to [00:10:00] you. It's a really big priority to you. It's so important. This is something that we need to do and, and you, and maybe you're thinking, but I've like I've, you know, like. [00:10:11] Changed so many of my plans and or, you know, like I've, we've worked so much on other things, like, I've allowed you to do these things. I've let you do this. I've let you do this. Just do this one thing for me. Please. Just do this one thing for me. Yeah. I mean, and so it feels like like, oh, they're just, you know, it could be just, they're. [00:10:29] It may seem like they are spoiled or, you know, like you're like, I've given you everything . Yeah. Everything you want, You, you get to do so much. You have so much freedom. And then I just want you to do this one thing. Mm-hmm. , come on. You know? Mm-hmm. . So I think that there is a pain point there for sure. Yeah. [00:10:44] Especially when you've put so much thought and planning into it and money. Right.  [00:10:50] And so the way that our kids are pushing back is probably not like, Hey, mom, ideal. Mm-hmm. , can we have a meeting? Yeah. I'm not[00:11:00] , I'm enjoy Do math right now or something. Right? It's not gonna look like that. It's gonna look like something hard. It's gonna look, They might look like they're cry. They might be crying. [00:11:10] Mm-hmm. , they might be refusing, they might be manipulating you. They might be you know, they might look like manipulation off. They could look like, Yes. Look like manipulation. They could be being disrespectful. Mm-hmm. . There are lots of things it can look like, and that's, that's okay. That's them communicating. [00:11:30] That is them communicating to you. Right, Right, right. And it's our, not our job in that moment to fix the way they're communicating to us what's wrong. I think that that is a big mistake that we all, and that might be even hard to wrap your head around right now at this moment when I'm saying it, because I think what we as parents, Wanna do is correct. [00:11:52] Like we can't perpetuate this bad behavior. Yeah. By listening to them when they're acting this way. And I [00:12:00] think that's a mistake. Parents. I think that's a mistake. Mm-hmm. , I think what we do need to say is I hear you. I see that this is not working. Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna, we're gonna work on that first. [00:12:13] I'm gonna be take responsible, you know, responsibility for what's not going well be of, because of like what I've planned and what's, what's going on here. Mm-hmm. , I'm gonna work on that. I'm gonna take responsibility for that. And, you know, like, let's, let's work together here and. Then like at a very, in a distant time, when they're, when the emotions are back to regulated mm-hmm. [00:12:35] and you've moved, you know, you've moved on emotionally from this tough situation, then you can say that's when you can work on communication skills, the way they communicated it, the way they communicated it, and it doesn't even, you don't even necessarily have to go back to rehash that. Scenario, right? [00:12:52] Cause that could just bring it all back up. It could be like, I wanna talk everybody about like, if you're ever having a problem with something, this is what you could do. You know, just moving [00:13:00] forward, here's what we can do. Yeah, yeah. Right. Just talk about it in general. In general or, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:13:07] Because I think a lot of times when kids are trying to say something and it's, it comes out as disrespectful. Parents, including myself, I've done this focus on the disrespectful nature of what they're saying, Right? They do. Yes. Which is not the point, which is, which is really they're just trying to get heard trying to get heard. [00:13:26] Yep. So, And it can be tempting to do that because you're like, Wait, you shouldn't talk to me like that. Like, I don't talk to you like that. And I, we, we don't talk to each other like that, right? It can be tempting to focus on that first, but I think we really need to take a step back and be like, You know what, we'll deal with that later. [00:13:42] Right now they're trying to communicate with me that something's not working. Right? Yep. So you can say something like, Hey I hear that I see you, that you're really upset and something's not working. Mm-hmm. , can we talk about that? Mm-hmm. , or do we need to take a break right now? Cause you might need to take a break because maybe emotions are high or whatever. [00:13:59] Take a break. Let's [00:14:00] come back later and talk about it. Cuz I see that you're trying to communicate with me that something's not working. Yes. And I think what happens in that situation is you are not perpetuating the bad behavior. What you're saying is you actually don't. To act like that, I will listen to you. [00:14:13] Mm mm-hmm. . And so next time they might be like, they might actually next time or maybe in five times, I don't know. Or maybe when they're more mature, eventually they're gonna be like, actually, I don't need to put up such a fuss. My mom just listens to me. My parent just listens to me. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So actually you are untangling that for sure. [00:14:36] That's so true, Maren, because I think a lot of people can think like, Well, I, we need to address the disrespectful, but like, I, like I just said, you know, like, we need to address this. Mm-hmm. , and it's Yeah, because it hurts, but you're doing, you're doing it in a different way. Right, Right, right. In a different. [00:14:51] You're showing them, I love you, I care about you. I see that you are hurting and let's talk about it. Yep. I love and care about you and I value you [00:15:00] no matter how you're acting, when you're really stressed out. Mm-hmm. . Yes. You know, as a child. Yeah. I mean, as adults, when we're really stressed out, we don't always act. [00:15:10] Ideally, I don't want We're adults. Yep. For adults. Yep. So our kids have not developed their brain yet. They haven't For sure. They're not even really capable. Sure. Yet. Yet. Yet. Right. They will be So when kids are pushing back, they are telling you something's not working. Mm-hmm. , It can be a variety of different things that aren't working and they might not even be able to name it. [00:15:35] They might say like, I hate. Writing or whatever, like, I hate writing, but what they might really be saying is like, it might not be the subject, it might be the curriculum you're using. Yes. It might be the time of day that you're doing it. Right. They might be hungry, they might be tired. prob, They probably are. [00:15:57] Yeah. Hungry. Maybe they're [00:16:00] curriculum is too hard. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Right. Maybe it's too easy. Maybe it's too boring. You know what? It might be too boring because a lot of curriculum is boring, so you know, it, Chances are it might be too boring. Yeah. It might be that they didn't have a say in picking it out. [00:16:17] Yeah, and I would also just add, like I, I think there are ki there are just with learning differences, there might just be an adjustment that needs to happen. Like my, I have a kid who whenever it's like I reading or writing, Boring, quote unquote. Yeah. Boring. They use the word boring. They use the word boring, but honestly they are. [00:16:38] They listen to audio books like nonstop. Yeah. And tell stories and like, yeah. They're so creative about other things. It's just like, it's like the eye reading is just such a, a strain. It's hard. Slog. It's a slog. And then same with like physical hand, like writing things down is real. It's like [00:17:00] there's also some like fine motor skills that are really developing there too, so, Okay. [00:17:04] Mm-hmm. , it's boring. Let's, let's like, Really drilled down into what that what do you mean it's boring? Right. Cause like for that kid it might be like the actual work of it is, is boring. Yeah, it probably is. Yes. But not like the subject of writing or reading. , right? Yeah. Or if it's reading, maybe it's not necessarily just the subject of Ring. [00:17:26] I mean, I think a lot, I mean, any kid could probably enjoy reading if they had the right maybe topic of book. Mm-hmm. You know, and a very high interest thing. Right. There's a lot of things we can do within the subject too. Right? Yeah, that's true. Make it That's true. Make it more, Yeah. Yeah. Relevant. So when, what to do when your kids push back. [00:17:48] Mm-hmm. . I think the thing you don't wanna do is power through . Right. I think, I think that although I have tried that, I, I have tried that. We've all tried that. No judgment. No judgment. [00:18:00] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But powering through never seems to work for, for me. Right. But I think when kids push back, we wanna stop what we're doing and connect first. [00:18:10] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So maybe that's listening to them. Maybe that is. Telling them that you hear them and see them and care about them and that you're gonna figure this out together. Right. Maybe that's saying, Hey, you know what, like I can tell that this is really stressing us both out right now. Do you wanna just go like, watch something on TV right now together? [00:18:30] Yes. And pedal, you know, just completely changing things up. Totally. Yeah, and you can also just not. You can also just decide this is not for us. Right, Right now for sure. You know's like you're not even gonna try tomorrow, is what you're saying. Not gonna try tomorrow. This is not, Yeah. You can take a break for however long you need to. [00:18:49] Right, Right, right. For it. Exactly. Yep. You might try again tomorrow. You might try next week. You might try in a couple months. Right, Right. And, and you can also do it differently like we talked [00:19:00] about. There are some things that you can do differently. You can try a different angle, but it often does, there often does, has to have to be you know, a break in the emotion. [00:19:08] There has to be a a, a period where The memory of this tough thing may, may, like, make it tough to even try it in a different way. Mm-hmm. , So you wanna give it time for sure. Yes. Depending on what your child needs or you need for sure. It's different for everyone, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so When you decide to try it again after your break mm-hmm. [00:19:30] You might try a new curriculum. Yes. You might try something completely different like an app. Yep. You, you might, another thing you could do is outsource it. To like, maybe they take a class online, maybe they do it at a co-op or something. Maybe you change the time of date. Maybe you do it before bed. [00:19:48] Okay. I love that one because that's outside of the box thinking that I think a lot of kids need, Okay. They need us to be thinking outside of the box. We think we have to do school between eight and three or something, you know, [00:20:00] whatever's in our mind. Yeah. Yeah. Learning happens all the time. Yeah, it really does for. [00:20:04] That's so true. And it could be different for everybody. It could be before bed, it could be that your partner takes, takes it on. Yes. Maybe you're just like, You know what? I can't do this subject with this child because it's too hard for both of us right now. Can you take it on? Yep. Maybe you just don't do it at all. [00:20:19] Right? I dunno. There's a lot of, you have a lot of choices and. I was just gonna also say, I think it's really important for us, this is where I think, and we talk about this so much on the podcast, is to notice all the learning that's already happening around you. Mm-hmm. , there's so much learning that's happening around you. [00:20:34] If you, if you, you know, took notes on all the ways your kids are learning throughout the day, you may not feel like you really have to do all the things that you've planned cuz they are learning so much. Maybe even the. Subject and skill that you're trying to directly teach over here? Maybe they've, they're doing it naturally on their own. [00:20:53] Yeah. Throughout the day, or maybe not exactly, but like there's still. [00:21:00] Our, our job is, you know, to have our kids practice learning. We want them to get into the habit of learning. It doesn't always even matter the exact thing that they're learning. They're in the habit of learning. When they're the habit of learning, they're going to continue to learn for the rest of their lives. [00:21:18] And so to, to be like really a stickler about the exact thing they're gonna learn today is can kill. That habit of learning. Right? And so then, then, okay, they learn that one thing today, but they're not gonna learn as much for the rest of their lives. So what we really want is the continued learning. [00:21:37] Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . So given all that, is it ever okay to push your kids? Mm-hmm. ? I think. This is an interesting question because mm-hmm. , I think a lot of times I think people have different opinions on it, so I would love to hear, Oh, for sure. Mar, what do you think about, Is it ever okay to push your kids? [00:21:57] I do think it's good. I, I [00:22:00] like to use, we've said this on the podcast before, to stretch without breaking. You wanna stretch without breaking. And especially this works really well when it's something your kids. Are willing and excited about working on it's like the book Grit talks about this a lot. [00:22:17] I think it's Angela Duckworth is the author. Yeah. You know, she talks a lot about how grit is not working hard on something you hate doing. It's, you know, working hard on the things that you can get in the flow with and for sure excited about. And so they, those are the ideal places. Push your kids, honestly. [00:22:34] You know, and I don't mean like push out of their, you know too, Right. Stretch. Stretch. Yes, for sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I do think that's ideal. Mm-hmm. When kids are really into something, but I think a lot of times they're not, you know, like some, sometimes they're just not like, you know, and this, there might be something that you just think is really important. [00:22:54] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes it is okay. I, I think especially as kids get older mm-hmm. , so like, maybe [00:23:00] I'm talking like middle school age. Yes. I think it's okay to sometimes push them. I think sometimes they need to try it and see that they can overcome this or what Definitely. Yeah. Or they can flex these certain muscles. [00:23:11] They might need to know what that feels like. I do wanna, I do think in the middle school, and I actually just had a conversation with middle school teachers about this , about how middle schoolers are often, often asking, What's in it for me? What's in it for me? And I think that we all agreed that's a valid question because. [00:23:30] Doing work that they don't care about is not, there's nothing in it for them for sure. So I think that it's very important to listen to your middle schooler especially so that they understand there is like there's something, they do get something out of it. Yeah. And maybe it's something completely unrelated to the actual learning. [00:23:45] You get to do something that I don't usually let you do or whatever it is, you know you know, we're gonna go get a treat after this or something. Yeah. I think that that is valid. I don't think there's anything wrong with. Especially for a kid with a learning difference, especially adhd, there [00:24:00] is no dopamine hit you get from accomplishing something you didn't wanna do in the first place. [00:24:05] So there has to be some sort of, you have to provide that yourselves. Yeah. If you want them to continue to do these, push themselves in ways they never really wanted to in the first place. Yeah, I totally agree with that. There are lots of things I don't wanna do and Exactly right. Sometimes I give myself rewards. [00:24:24] Yeah. For doing them right. , I say like, when I'm done with this, I can do this. And so I do think having those conversations with your kids is important. Like, Yes. This does not have to be a day filled with a bunch of things you don't like to do. Right? Right. Yes. You're, you're not into this, but it's important. [00:24:39] Okay. What could we do after mm-hmm. to make it worth it for you. Mm-hmm. . And you do want, you want them, you know, when, when we do give those, you know, outside rewards or whatever, I, for me, the po the, the goal is, and you reference this, Angela, is my, the goal is for them to feel. [00:25:00] The accomplishment, but they aren't willing to try it to feel the accomplishment until they get a little, you know, outside motivation or whatever. [00:25:06] Yeah. Yeah. So eventually they'll feel the accomplishment, but they might not ever feel that if it's something they don't like to do. Yeah. If it's something they do like to do and they're still scared to try it or whatever, that's what we're dealing with at our house. Like, I know you're gonna love this. [00:25:20] I just, I need you to try it. And Then I feel like then eventually they don't, they don't need the outside rewards, you know, they get it internally. And that is the ultimate goal, is to be like, Oh, you felt so good doing that, and you saw this, you know, this growth and the accomplishments and you should be so proud of yourself. [00:25:41] And that's like, Yes. And I would say too, like, you know your child best, right? Yes. Yes. I think sometimes this is appropriate, sometimes it's not. Sometimes for sure the thing that you're trying to do isn't really necessary. So I would ask yourself those tough questions. Mm-hmm. And see [00:26:00] where you can give a little too. [00:26:02] And yeah, I would try not, I mean, like, I don't know, I just, I hear from a lot of people or a lot of situations that like, homeschool is a struggle and there's lots of crying and my kid doesn't wanna do this or whatever. And I just think that that sh that shouldn't be the majority of it. Right. Right. You, you have to be a good judge of when it's appropriate to do a little bit of nudging. [00:26:26] And I also think like you know, you can't do that the whole day, so no. You have to really pick what you have to pick. Yep. Mm-hmm. , you have to pick when it's, when to use that. When are you willing to use that? Cuz you don't have many of those ships in your pocket. You really don't. Right. And my kids too are sometimes even when I give the outside, you know, dayle, the carrot in front of them, they're like, No, no, thanks. [00:26:50] I've seen that before I got into it. No, thank you. Not worth it. And I, I get it. I understand that too. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And some, and sometimes [00:27:00] kids are so shut down that there's nothing, there's nothing, You don't even, you know, even doing, doing anything to push. Your agenda forward is just going to damage the relationship, and that's when you know it's time to just stop and connect and for sure move on. [00:27:18] Stopping and connecting is just. The most important. And then listening, just really listen to them, like, why are they not into this? Yeah. You know? And then if they're giving good reasons, like, is this really that important at this age? Right. And even if they might, they might not. That's the other thing is they might not be communicating good reasons at this point in their lives. [00:27:39] They might not be. So we have to kinda, as parents, I don't know, like it's really difficult, but. You know, we sometimes just have to read between the lines a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. , but hopefully they can, maybe you can even what you see, you can, you can talk to them about what you observe and what you [00:28:00] notice might be happening if they're not able to tell you. [00:28:03] Mm. Mm-hmm. You know, what's wrong? What I'm noticing is this, is that right? Do you think this is right or not? Yeah. Or whatever. But it'll, eventually it'll start to come out the more you practice mm-hmm. , that kind of communication. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. All right, . I hope that was helpful. Well, I hope so too. I always love talking about this kind of stuff. [00:28:25] We would love to hear your thoughts too. All right. Let's move on to lt. Ws Loving this week. Angela, what are you loving? [00:28:33] Okay. I am loving a skincare product. Now, , I hesitate in saying this cause I'm not like a skincare person and I don't necessarily know what I'm doing. So I'm not like an expert. So just this is my non-expert product opinion. Noted. Okay. . This is for a product from the ordinary. It's called a aha, 30% plus bha, 2% peeling solution. [00:28:59] Actually, I think the name is [00:29:00] just Peeling Solution. Oh, okay. Okay. So it comes in like a glass bottle with a dropper. Okay. And what you do, it's like a mask that you might wear at night to exfoliate, and you don't use it that often. You would maybe use it once, maybe twice a week at the most, right? Mm-hmm. [00:29:18] So, and it sits on your face, like it goes on kind of like a thick liquid. Oh, wow. And it sits on your face for like 10 minutes. Okay. And then you wash it off. And then the next day, your skin looks amazing. Oh my gosh, . Wow. That's what it is. So I bought this in like I just looked, 2019 was when I bought it the first time, and I just ran out and reordered. [00:29:43] So like I've had it for a long time now. I don't think I've been using it every week. Yeah. I think I've gone a few weeks in the middle without, But it, my point is it lasts a long time. It's $8. Wow. It's $8 on the ordinary.com. I like a lot of ordinary products. Oh yeah. So you could probably [00:30:00] get a few different things there. [00:30:02] But I really love this one because it's basically like it peels off. Dead skin. I think that's amazing. This is my unprofessional terminology. It peels off your dead skin. Cause I feel like there is some ex, a lot of exfoliating products out there that I don't feel. Does that necessarily? Yeah, this really does that. [00:30:23] Okay. So like whenever I'm like, my face starts to look, you know, where. Ugh. What's going on here? Like, it looks dull. Or like, I have some flakiness, I have some dry skin sometimes at the top, like in my forehead, and then I go, Oh yeah, I forgot I could do my, you could do my mask. Ooh. So I do it at night, like when I'm taking a bath and I just let it sit there. [00:30:45] It does tingle does it? Which can become, It can feel weird. Okay. Okay. Shingles, but like, cuz that means it's working. I don't know. Okay. Okay. You wipe it off and then you just put. Put some moisturizer on top of it. You can go to bed and [00:31:00] like I said, the next day you wake up and you're like, Wow, what happened? [00:31:02] Oh wow, this looks great. So I'm so excited about this. Yeah. So yeah, I wanted to let you all know that it's a really. Cheap and easy. Great way to, That's a good excuse to order a few things from the ordinary . Yeah. Right? Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. . All right. Martin, what are you loving this week? Okay. I'm loving a very simple snack and it's it's blue but blue diamond almonds, and they have newer flavor called Sweet Thai Chili. [00:31:30] I get these from, Costco. So a very large bag, , very large bag of these. And I'm telling you, I think I might be the only one who eats them in my family and they go fast. So that's telling me I'm, I'm the one who, they're eating a lot, very large bag of these almonds. They're so delicious. And I just, you know, obviously protein filled, which I need in the middle of the day. [00:31:58] Yeah. I need more [00:32:00] protein. Yeah. To keep going. These are great, great snacks. This is a great snack. I need new, I need new great snack ideas. Cause honestly, like snacks leave me lacking. I agree. Same. And I, I'm happy to eat something healthy if it's easy. Yeah. If it's easy, I will eat it. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And this is, you know, Yeah. [00:32:23] And it's so tasty. It's, you know, it's just like, it's a, it's sweet. It's a little sweet. It's a little spicy. Which I love. The only thing I don't like is that it gets my fingers. I was gonna say, do they? Yeah. Yeah. I don't like that. I do not like that. But I, It's obviously very worth it to me, , because I continue, continue to buy these every time. [00:32:45] That's awesome. Shop at Costco. . That's great. And they're just for you because your kids aren't into them, so they're just for me. I'm sure. I'm sure my husband eats them too. I don't know. He must, He must. I keep telling myself that. Because they You must. You must. [00:33:00] Yeah. Right, right. That's what I think. I hide. [00:33:03] I do have chocolate that I hide because I'm like, People, you cannot keep eating this. This is just for me. Yes. Which I know every parent probably hides. Definitely. So, Okay. Yep. Same. All right. Well thank you everybody for being here today. Special thank you to our three sponsors, Blossom and Ro Out School and Knight Zookeeper. [00:33:26] Be sure to check out their links in our show notes. This podcast is created and hosted by Angela C and Mar Gorse. We are listener support. To get extra content and the Back to School summit free with your membership, go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive book list@homeschoolunrefined.com slash newsletter. [00:33:54] You can find Maren on Instagram at unrefined Maren, and at Always Learning With [00:34:00] Maren Find Angela at unrefined Angela.

Join us as we talk about creative writing and inspiring our children with Josh Davidson. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors   We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings:   Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase   Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class    Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription  LTWs    Maren: Warby Parker   Angela: All You Can Ever Know by Nicole Chung   Connect with us!  Visit our website  Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren  Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com   Complete Episode Transcript   [00:00:00]  [00:00:08] Maren: Hi, we're Maren and Angela of homeschool, unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters. Together with our master's degree and 20 years combined homeschooling. We are here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic  [00:00:26] Angela: lens. [00:00:27] At Homeschool Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourselves credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self-care, listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and PAC Voices.  [00:00:47] Maren: We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:51] Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all of your kids are at home or all of your kids are in [00:01:00] school or somewhere in between. Wherever you are on your journey, we're the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are your.  [00:01:08] Angela: This is episode 1 95, Sparking Inspiration with Josh Davidson. [00:01:14] We are gonna talk about creative writing and inspiring our children, and then we'll end like we always do with our lt. Ws are loving this  [00:01:22] Maren: week. Yes. And we wanted to give you a quick reminder that a. Few. We have a few new exciting updates to our podcast this year. Number one, we are including transcripts with all of our episodes. [00:01:35] So if you look at the show notes, you're gonna see transcripts. So you can check through everything we've said and if you wanna go back and get some of the details of what we talked about. Find it  [00:01:44] Angela: there. Yes. And those are in your right, in your podcast app. We also have them on our website.  [00:01:49] Maren: Yes. Which episode? [00:01:50] Yep. Yep. So that's at homeschool fine.com/episodes. So it'll be right in there. And then also we are also publishing our podcast [00:02:00] episodes. In video this season. And so you can go to YouTube and find our channel homeschool owner, Finded, and we even have a playlist specifically for the fall 2022 season. [00:02:11] And we have our videos. You're gonna see us on screen recording our episodes.  [00:02:16] Angela: Yeah. So that's very exciting. If you prefer that method. Yeah, you can get that there. Okay. So we are starting something new this season where we are bringing you three new sponsors for the entire fall season. We were very intentional about who we chose for sponsors. [00:02:29] We appreciate you taking the time to learn about them because we think they're really good companies. Also, they're giving discount codes, so you wanna listen for those. We are so happy to work hard on this podcast, and we appreciate the financial support in making  [00:02:42] Maren: it. Here at Homeschool under fine. You know we're all about making your life easier. [00:02:47] That's why we are excited to introduce you to Night Zookeeper. Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, then night [00:03:00] zookeeper may be just what you're looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focus on developing awesome reading and writing skills all while having fun at the same time. [00:03:19] Some of the features we love included include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutor. And the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn together. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. [00:03:42] And when you, when you register, you'll get a seven day risk free trial as well as a huge 50% off annual subscription. That's a great deal  [00:03:51] Angela: if you ask. I always had the toughest time finding a curriculum that was aligned with our values. Enter Blossom and [00:04:00] Root. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum, focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:04:09] Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschool families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:04:32] Volume one is available for purchase, and volume two is available on pre. All profits from this history curriculum. A River of voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. You can find samples, scope, and sequences and information about each of their levels online@blossomandwrit.com. [00:04:54] You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Root. Blossom. Andre has [00:05:00] created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your purchase.  [00:05:09] Maren: Our kids have taken so many different out school classes over the years, which is why partnering with them was a no brainer. We know that kids love to learn. Kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future, they create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. [00:05:32] Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their interests, connect with diverse peers from around the world, and take an active role in leading their learning out. School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for you and your family, and join us as we set [00:06:00] learning. [00:06:01] Sign up today at out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined, and get up to 20% off your first class when you enroll with the code unrefined.  [00:06:13] Angela: We are excited for our main topic today, which is sparking inspiration and Creativity with Josh Davidson. Josh Davidson is the creator and managing director of Night Zookeeper, a magical inspirational brand where children discover and create imaginative animals. These animals join an interactive world and can feature in his story books on on Anani animated series on Spy Kids. In a collectible card game and an online learning program that helps children with reading and writing and unlocks their creativity, Josh is a passionate public speaker on games, education, and creativity. He has spoken at many international conferences. Additionally, he has been interviewed across BBC stations in the United Kingdom. [00:06:54] Please enjoy our conversation with Josh. [00:06:58] Maren: I want [00:07:00] to invite our guest, Josh from the Night Zookeeper here today. Thank you so much for being with us, Josh.  [00:07:08] Josh: Oh, thank you so much for having me.  [00:07:10] Maren: I'm wondering if you could just tell us, just start out by telling us a little bit about yourself and just your background.  [00:07:17] Josh: Absolutely. So, yes. So I'm Josh. [00:07:19] I'm the author of the Night Zookeeper Storybook series and the creator of night zookeeper.com, which is a website based on the the theme, if you like, of the night zookeeper stories but is an interactive website. Children are inspired to fall in love with writing and get lots of reading practice. [00:07:42] And we also help with grammar and spelling, et cetera, to sort of really convert the most reluctant. You know, there's a few of them out there, the most reluctant of young readers and writers into the authors of tomorrow. I just made up that line, but it sounds good. The authors of, of tomorrow. [00:07:57] Maren: I really love that. I really love that, and [00:08:00] I love that you have that vision. We'll talk more about that in just a little bit, but at first I wanna ask you like, how did you come up with this idea of the night zookeeper? It just, it sounds like the ideal thing for a reluctant reader or writer, and I'm wondering what, what brought you here? [00:08:16] What, what made you create.  [00:08:18] Josh: Sure. So I mean, obviously with all things in life there's a, there's an element of serendipity I heard. So during my studies I traveled to Australia. So as you say, I'm based in the uk but I did an exchange in Australia, in Melbourne, and I heard whilst I was there that their zoo was open at night. [00:08:39] And obviously I, now, I think zoos, you know, across the world, some of zoos often open, like there's a night zoo in Singapore and London Zoo late, so there's a, this is a thing. Oh wow. But at the time I didn't know anything about it. Right. And being a strange young man hearing about a night zoo I so immediately was. [00:08:56] My head was filled with time traveling elephants and [00:09:00] buying giraffes that could turn invisible. And Oh, cool. I had a little notebook and I started to write my story about this strange zoo and the sort of things that you would encounter there. Right, right. But I finished my, I was doing my, my fine art degree at the time. [00:09:14] I then did a Master's in Digital Art, and one of the modules that I was studying was called Collaborative Practices. And it was about using the internet to collaborate with others. So, you know, kind of like we're, we're doing now, right? Talking over the, the, the magical power of the internet. And it was different things that you could use the internet for to collaborate. [00:09:34] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. anyway. In trying to work out what I was going to do as part of my studies into that module, I was flicking through my notepad of ideas and I came across my short story that I'd written about the night suit, and I realized that although my story was okay, what was really lovely about the story was that it was a. [00:09:59] [00:10:00] Fundamentally of what magical animals could exist in a zoo at nighttime. Right. And not only was I as an author, you know, or a writer or whatever, I was inspired to write something, but I was pretty sure that other people would be just to tell them, you know, that that power of the night, Right. It's kind of, it always been. [00:10:18] My childhood. I think it's a very human thing that things can exist in nighttime. All the way back to the teddy bear picnic, the thing teddy bear picnic. Oh yes. No. Yeah. But the thing is gonna happen. And so yeah, I I turned this short story into a collaborative project, which was based around a website where anybody could log on and create new magical animals that would live in my fictional night suit. [00:10:41] And my best friend Paul, Hudson, who is my co-founder in Night Sweet Keeper, was a primary school teacher and he said, Josh, I want to do this with my kids in class. Yes. I said, That sounds awesome. Mm-hmm. . So he convinced his head teacher to invite me [00:11:00] in. So I came in as an artist and we ran this project where we, I, you know, I, I lied to children, which I've now made a professional career. [00:11:08] And I told them that I was a night zookeeper in a magical night zoo. And I looked after these spying giraffes and time traveling elephants. But the, The night zoo needed more animals. And we were wondering whether these, you know, these kids wanted to come up with some animals to live in the zoo, and boy did they, they absolutely went for it. [00:11:29] And it simultaneously showed me just how. Uncreative. I am because I created a draft that could turn invisible, whereas they had created a dragon fish crossed with a ham sandwich. You know, like they, they, they took things to this, this level that, That's amazing. Creativity. That was like, okay, I, I, yeah. [00:11:48] I bow down before the and, and yeah, that's where we are now. Like with that's cool. Website. That's basically that idea. That initial sort of engaging assembly, if you like, where you [00:12:00] tell kids, this is what we're gonna do through, through digital media, and then let them go for it and, you know, Yeah. [00:12:06] It's doing a pretty much a massive disservice to the website to say that that's what it does, because it's huge and, you know, we're throwing everything but the kitchen sink it, Getting kids to fall in love with reading and writing, but at the, at the very heart of. It's that it's this story that, and the power of storytelling and how that can sort of spark an individual child's imagination and how you can then channel that imagination into creative output like writing. [00:12:32] Maren: I love that because I do think when we, when we approach learning as , we, we have to do this, You have to get to this level. Then our kids often. Get to that level and maybe that's it. Maybe that's all they do. Or maybe they even struggle to get to this certain level. But when you come in as a night zookeeper, , and you're like, I want you to think of, imagine these animals, you know, the limit. [00:12:56] There's no limit. They go, they go everywhere with [00:13:00] that. Absolutely.  [00:13:00] Josh: You can see the brains, like you can see the sparks flying. Right. And what's wonderful is it's such. A UNFI for all the kids, cuz you've got kids of all different ability levels. Some totally. Some, some engaged in the activities, some not. [00:13:12] Some with, you know, have been spending the morning reading about the how a human eye works and others that have been reading about animals on a farm. Yeah. But you put them together and they've all going to, they're all gonna express themselves. They're all gonna create something. Is using their, their brain in a really interesting way, as I mentioned, that they were destroying me. [00:13:31] But then they can all relate to each other. Of course, they were, they were, yeah. Kids, 12 year old kids talking to six year old kids about their animals. Mm-hmm. Like that's wonder. So, so we see this with siblings in homeschool. So you get the older kid and the younger kids, some of the playing together for, and learning, playing together. [00:13:46] And it's, it's a wonderful way to To, to sort of, to sort of, in a way sort of forget about some of those levels that we try and think about. Yes. And because there's something so hu it's just [00:14:00] human. That's what it is. It's just human. Ultimately it's about being human and using our, you know, the gifts that we've been given and seeing how, where we can take them. [00:14:08] Maren: Exactly. And so that's, you kind of answered this question, which is why do you think creative writing is a good way. To start at such a young age. You're talking about very young kids here. So, I mean, I think you kind of answered that, but if there's anything else you wanna add, why do you think it's good to start creative writing at such a young age? [00:14:27] Josh: Oh, I like, yeah. I mean, I think that like with any anything that's innately human as a skill storytelling is. You know, the to human skill, it's right at the core of what we do and how to survive in this world, and. Yeah. Writing is, is an extension of that. But what the tools that we've built on my zookeeper, you know, of course you, the most common scenario you get with kids is that their, their brains run a million miles ahead of their, their technical ability. [00:14:59] [00:15:00] That is so true. Yes. Tell and imagining and their thinking and, and getting those thoughts and down and sort of structuring them is, is a huge challenge. But it is like zookeeper as a platform. It's built to scaffold that process so, You're not giving kids a blank piece of paper and saying, Tell me everything about this creature you've invented. [00:15:21] The way that it unfolds is, you know, you asked to draw the creature that you're imagining, then you're asked what its name is. Then you are asked, maybe it's where does it live or what does it eat? Or does it have any special abilities? And each question is, you know, almost delivered like a, a chat between yourself and the animals and the animals kind of learning about themselves. [00:15:41] And this. Means that it never feels to the kid like a daunting thing. Absolutely. It never feels like something that they can't do. And, and so from the youngest ages, they're, they're constantly having this interaction with the program, but they're also having it with themselves and anyone that's doing it [00:16:00] with, I mean, that's the other thing about, Yes, this particular experience, like it's a lovely way for a parent to engage with their child or as I mentioned, like an older sibling, to engage with the younger sibling because suddenly, You know, you are drawing each ideas out of each other and you are realizing like, Oh, where, where did you think of that? [00:16:17] Like, where did that idea come from? But like, Oh, maybe you must have heard, you know, grandpa say something about this the other day. So you're bringing that into it and it's like, Oh, this is really interesting. Where, where your mind works. Because that's where, you know, creativity is at the core of how our  [00:16:30] Maren: brains work. [00:16:31] I think that is so, you are so right about that, and I love that you're scaffolding it like that, or, and also just making maybe the most challenging parts very small. Like, do this one little thing that's challenging and actually it's so motivating because it's not like, do this one little thing that's challenging and you don't get any reward from it. [00:16:49] No, you do this one little challenging thing and then it, it, it adds to your, you know, You know, this world that you're creating and feels in  [00:16:59] Josh: your mind's so good. [00:17:00] Gives you, Yeah. So in terms of that as well, like we do this scaffolding process, not just for the younger kids, but for the older kids as well. [00:17:06] Cause you do absolutely find that you get a lot of older kids who have been turned off writing. They don't like it. Yes. They don't wanna do it. Yeah. And feels hard. It's one of the few subjects actually that we've really struggled. Globally to sort of gamify and make feel like it's fun, but not what Zuki does. [00:17:20] By doing this sort of building up of questions and answers is at the end of that process, if you are an older kid, we show you what you've done. Okay. Show you. Ooh, I like that now. I just wrote all of that without realizing it. Like here's a big, I'm doing it visually. Of course no one can see , but I've got a,  [00:17:36] Maren: I see it. [00:17:37] It's really big.  [00:17:38] Josh: An elephant sized head of writing. Yes. On the page and the kids. Even though it's just right at the back of their subconscious, they're like, Yeah, yeah, I can do that now. So whenever they're, you know, they, they see other pieces, people's writing, if they've struggled with writing stamina because they, they typically write a couple of sentences and then it's, they just don't want to write anymore. [00:17:58] Right. They're bored, [00:18:00] they're struggling. It's hard, like part of it is like with everything in life as you feel that you can do it once you've. And we are saying, Hey, you know what? You've done this. Here it is. And then the next time they come, they might not need, the older kids might not need that scaffolding approach. [00:18:15] They might wanna jump straight into that work classic kind of word processor setting because they feel like they can do it now. Yeah, you're gonna have that writing stamina. But yeah, we always provide that as a yeah, as a realization for the kids ultimately that they are.  [00:18:29] Maren: That is so great because it just builds that self confidence and their identity. [00:18:35] As you know, a lot of times our kids don't even, can't even identify as a writer, even though they certainly have all the ideas, but we just need, you know, maybe just need a few tools and then it can go, you know, wherever. You know, they have freedom to do so many things with just a few things. So Good. It's so hard though. [00:18:56] It, so many of us, especially homeschool parents [00:19:00] are feeling frustrated about reading and writing, to be honest. Right. I mean, it just, it feels like sometimes it feels like we're slogging through things. It feels like we're requiring things more than enjoying things. And so what are your tips for a, for us , for us parents at home who are like feeling frustrated right now? [00:19:20] Josh: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's it's a difficult position to be in because kids can be stubborn and Yeah. You know, once they've made up their mind about a subject or an area that they're like, Okay, no, I, I don't do that. That's not, you know, I don't like that. Or that, you know, even to the point, you know, you have kids crying when they're put in front of a piece of paper, they want to write like it breaking and they've got to that point in their brain where they're like, This is something I can't do. [00:19:44] Yes. And I guess that's the first thing to realize is that ultimately this, this is a, a feeling that's inside them that needs to be, be worked through, needs to be worked out. And of course I would say this, but no, zookeeper's a really good way of doing that because it's yeah, it's a game [00:20:00] and I, you know, whether it's night zookeeper or something else, right. [00:20:02] You need to find a game, which has a different element to it than pure writing. And you need to show the child, the, the writing part, the reading part of the writing part of that game is something that they can do because they're not focused on it. They're not thinking, This is what I'm doing. Right, Right. [00:20:20] I'm writing, they're thinking. Right, right, right. I need. I need to beat my parents at this board game, which involves a bit of writing or reading, or I need to beat my kid, you know, Or I want to create something really beautiful. There's a painting for my, my, my mom's fridge. But I'm, but then mom's asked me to give a title for it and maybe like, just write down a few things so I, she can read, read about what, what's into this castle. [00:20:43] It's just, yeah, they need, they're gonna need a breakthrough moment, I guess. That's what I would say. I don't think. You're gonna have success, you know, looking at the traditional ways of doing this. Right, right. [00:21:00] Classic sort of systems that exist. Yeah. Recognizing, made up mind and adapting the approach.  [00:21:07] Maren: I love that. [00:21:08] Yep. That's so true. It seems like a lot of times we, we definitely. Homeschool parents, us, we focus on the semantics and the, the actual like details of the, I don't know, might be punctuation or handwriting or capital, things like that, that we are, I mean, we can really focus on those things and then it gets, it becomes more about that. [00:21:33] Rather than, and what, what I hear you saying is our, the kids, our kids' strengths are often in their ideas, right? In their imagination. And the possibilities in the unreal , you know, this is this whole, they, you know, there can be a whole world. That's where their strengths lie. I feel like. And I feel like with your program, there's so much like we, you build on the strengths [00:22:00] and the other stuff kind of comes along with it. [00:22:04] I think so. But it's not the focus always. It's not like the thing they have to do.  [00:22:08] Josh: Exactly right. I think, I think a lot of it is if we're talking about you know, upskilling mm-hmm. or if you have a child that you know, will write but writes terribly Yes. And hates being paroled into doing the kind of the classic practice mm-hmm. [00:22:21] And, and editing and redrafting. Or elements within Zuki that help with that as well. So yes. First of all, we're trying to get 'em to write lots. Then anything that they're writing is part of this game is coming through to a tutor. So this isn't you, this isn't the parent and the child relationship. [00:22:39] If there's stress building up here, then take that stress away, you know, by giving this piece of work to. You know, a face on the screen could be my face, but probably not one of our, our tutoring team. But their tutoring team's face is going to be coming back on that piece of writing that your, your [00:23:00] child has put together. [00:23:01] Okay? And they're gonna know, they're gonna see the strengths in it, but they're also gonna see the weaknesses and they're gonna craft a comment that will nudge. As, as enthusiastically as possible, your child toward better practices with the writing. Wow. So that is the, that is the key because worst all it matters in some, to some children it matters that this is somebody who cares. [00:23:24] That's not. Their parents. This is someone else in the world. Exactly like that can make a massive, just a, a switch of, you know, if you have kids in a traditional school system, even like sometimes it's the teacher and the parent kind of doesn't count anymore, but there's someone else out there who's saying, this is good. [00:23:42] This is good. And you are? Yeah. Yeah. I feel quite good about that. Then I feel quite good that I think it's good. Oh, but they've said I can improve it if I just check that spell for that bit or, or I learn, remember to start using a few more paragraphs. I can do that. Cause I know what a paragraph is. Cause I just watched a video of it on that previous thing that Zuki sent me. [00:23:59] Yeah. And then I'm [00:24:00] gonna, and, and those kind of skill based. You know, real sort of core curriculum points that every young writer has to learn. I mean, it's, it, it comes back to like reading ultimately, like you just need your kids to read, right? Mm-hmm. , I mean, fundamentally. Yep. Kids will learn to read if they're reading, the more they read, the better at reading they're gonna get. [00:24:20] Right. Exactly. Your kid picks up a soccer magazine like, and they're reading great.  [00:24:25] Maren: Right. The more they enjoy reading, the more they're going to read, the more they're gonna choose to read.  [00:24:30] Josh: Exactly, and it's exactly the same with writing. Exactly. The more they're gonna enjoy writing, the more they're gonna get over any inner turmoil they have about writing, and then they're gonna, all those other things you're worried about, all those other things curriculums, tell you to worry about. [00:24:45] They will. They will come. Yes, they will come. Because you're in the same way that when you read and you read and you read, you pick up the the words and the skills that you need to Yeah. To, to go to new places.  [00:24:56] Maren: I love that you mentioned that there's this personal [00:25:00] tutor or a feed, a personal feedback that our, that every child gets when they, when they use night zookeeper, because I do, you're right. [00:25:07] Like it's so good to have somebody else besides your parent or your teacher work with you sometimes, especially in writing, I think because it is so personal and it almost feels a little vulnerable, even if. Even if it is about an animal that doesn't really exist, it's something that's been in your mind. [00:25:24] And you know, and to have your parent maybe give a little criticism of that can really be tough for a child. And so even just a little encouragement from someone else, you know, that's a little bit removed, but also very encouraging. Mm-hmm. is very encouraging. Yes. It seems, it seems like the best. [00:25:43] Situation, .  [00:25:45] Josh: One other, There's one other even better scenario that happens on my zookeeper. Ooh. And we encourage the kids to comment on other kids writer. Oh, that's awesome. So they, and we've trained them up, you know, through the system to leave positive book constructive [00:26:00] comments on other kids writing. [00:26:00] And it all goes through the tutors. So everything gets, you know, moderated and checked. And then, then if it's a nice constructive comment, it will appear on your kid writing from another student. Wow. And that, I'm, I'm yet to meet a kid who hasn't loved that actually. Like, there, there, there. You know, there's, and kids the best at being sensitive, like adults. [00:26:21] Like we, we try and be sensitive to our, to kids, right? But kids just kind and get other kids. They kind of know that they're all kind of in it together and Yeah. Yeah. They say it, they phrase it so nicely, like, Oh I laughed this piece. It was amazing. I, I'm gonna dream about this story you wrote tonight. [00:26:37] Of course. Just so you know I think you've missed a full stop at the end of that sentence. Yes, yes. Keep writing. I can't wait to read your next story. I'm your biggest fan and say, Wow, okay. I, I could write that. Like, the kid that receives, that's gonna be like, I'm adding that full stop and I'm writing something to mine and  [00:26:53] Maren: I'm gonna keep my mind, Yeah. [00:26:54] I'm gonna keep writing because that is so powerful. That is so [00:27:00] powerful. And you don't get that normally. You just don't get that experience. At such a young age. I mean, a lot of people don't get that unless you're in a creative writing program. Like you probably went through and had, you know, some kind of a group, a writing group or whatever. [00:27:14] But this is amazing and kids deserve to hear and feel that about their own ideas and writing.  [00:27:21] Josh: Absolutely. And you know, that's where you get those transformations. That's where you get a kid. You know, where we hear from parents who would scream and cry and hate, hate the idea of writing and they start using nights of Cuba cuz they've been told it's a game And Right. [00:27:35] Do see around it and before you know it, they're not They're not even worried about the, the game aspects. So n Uber has a sort of a gamified curriculum and some of them, we call them challenges and they're the closest to kind of like your, your kind of classic interactive challenge where you're like dragging and dropping work. [00:27:54] Or you are learning new pieces of vocabulary. All, all that stuff is, is there and, and it [00:28:00] follows you know, the classic, like in the, in the UK that's the called the National Curriculum And America, you know, you have your Common Core and there's the International Baccalaureate, you know, the, the interactive challenges and games on nights. [00:28:11] So you keep the, the sort of, as I say, you kind of expect from digital products. Now they're all. And kids when they first join, they kinda wanna play those. They want to be in the bit, which kind looks more gamey. Sure. But the kids. All kind of reach this point where they realize the real fun of Nisu Keep is taking all the stuff that they've been learning in those games and producing the writing, and then getting those comments and feeling like they've got a no idea, a new idea for a story that they really want to tell. [00:28:43] And they want people to be able to read that story. So they're gonna write it on my to keep, Yes. They're gonna write that idea that they've had for a story, and that's where you get the That's where when I said that thing about like the authors of tomorrow, like that is. What's happening that literally tells what's happening. [00:28:58] Maren: And it sounds like they're authors of [00:29:00] today too, because they're getting Well, absolutely. Basically, essentially published if they want to. Right? Well,  [00:29:05] Josh: they're, they're, they're published. Well, and it's another little segue actually. Nice one that so I still write the night, so keeper books and I write them with the community. [00:29:13] So I come up with. Sort of general themes of the stories and I have a plot and I kind of know where I want the stories to go. Yeah. But then I come up with a whole bunch of questions and I put them onto the website. So kids come up with characters, they come up with jokes. Mm-hmm. , plot points, locations, and they write these. [00:29:28] Again, it's a reason to write, They write this stuff onto the website. Yes. And, and the best ideas, you know, we credit the credit the kids in the books. I've even done book signings where I've been set next to kids who have contributed towards the, the story. So Awesome. Yeah, they can, Not only can they get themselves published, but they can be published. [00:29:45] Published if they can . Yeah.  [00:29:46] Maren: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. That's so awesome. I was just gonna ask too, so you mentioned you, so you have these books and this, that was really the inspiration for the, this whole program. Is it important for. The [00:30:00] families to get the books as well and make sure they read those before they start the program. [00:30:04] I mean,  [00:30:04] Josh: I, I'm, I'm obviously very biased to the, to the books, but No, no, you absolutely don't. The, the story is baked into the website. You know, you're gonna meet the characters, you're gonna go on an adventure. Yeah, Yeah. But it's all very self-contained. But if you've got a kid that struggles with reading and writing mm-hmm. [00:30:21] and of course I'm a, I'm, I'm a big book person as my overcrowded shelves at home will attest. You know, I think there's something very magical about a kid holding a book. Absolutely. And I that it's, it is a great way to compliment the learning. So yeah. Members of people who sign up tonight, Cuba get a pretty decent discount as well on, on getting. [00:30:40] Maren: And that's awesome. It is. You're right. There is something cool about having a physical book these days. You know, especially on a, with a digital, there's, everything's digital including this program. So it's kind of cool to make it tangible for them. There are some kids, especially younger kids, who really, that makes it feel  [00:30:54] Josh: real. [00:30:55] I, I agree. And I, I think that it's, it's yours, you know, when there's a [00:31:00] physical book Yeah. Take that extra care. There's something, you know, and this is something that I think that the world will, will find its balance between mm-hmm. , what digital enables and what the physical is so natural to us as physical beings. [00:31:15] And I feel like Zuki is a great example of where I think we're adding value. To traditional offline play where, you know, the kid can sit and paint a picture of an animal and then take onto the website if they want. They can write on Absolutely. If we produce monthly resources where, you know, you can print out, print them out, and write offline and practice your handwriting. [00:31:35] And all of these aspects are very important in developing writing. And again, that's all, all part of the experience because I think that digital is incredible. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But sometimes it puts us in slightly. Alien positions, right. Human beings. I mean, I still think it's, it's hilarious that the, the kids playroom for the last 20 years has been their dad's study or [00:32:00] Wednesday , you know, that kind of like, go and sit in a dark room in front of a screen like that. [00:32:04] They should be out. Right. And we'll get, we'll get there again, like, I'm pretty confident that these kind of hybridized tools that, and, you know, augmented reality and all this kind of stuff is going to mm-hmm. , reenable us to play away from. You know, screen pure, screen based situations and Yeah. But in the meantime, I think it's about balance and it's about having mm-hmm. [00:32:25] if you can sit and read a physical book, brilliant. If you can print out these resources and use phy, you know, physical resources to practice handwriting and do drawings and things on and, and aspects of the program offline, then great. But then, It. Yeah. We're in a situation where it's silly not to use all the benefits of technology as well. [00:32:42] Maren: Absolutely. And I think the best, the best programs, the best online programs, I think inspire you to do things offline too. And I think that's what your program definitely does. Like, you could, you, you would easily be inspired to go paint a picture or go just do some creative playing. Right. Role playing. [00:32:58] I mean, you know, all that [00:33:00] kinda stuff can, can be inspired from your program, so that is really  [00:33:03] Josh: awesome. Actually. I think that was one of the reasons why I ended up. Starting the business and taking it as far as I did. We were saying but I think before we started recording, but like how started with a, my co-founder was a primary school teacher working in schools, and he invited me into his school to run the first night Zuki project. [00:33:21] And at lunchtime, having me, you know, lied to the children and saying, I'm a night zookeeper and I look after magic animals. We went out into the playground at lunchtime and all the kids were running around pretending to be night zookeepers and all match animals and playing. And it was, it was such a moving and compelling experience for me that I was sort of convinced at that point that more kids in the world needed to, to have this. [00:33:46] Maren: Absolutely. I, yeah, I'm so excited for everyone who gets this program and can you just let us know how we can find you and how we can sign.  [00:33:55] Josh: So it's night zookeeper.com as in nighttime and [00:34:00] zookeeper. And you know, from there there's a, there's a parent page. That's your effect effectively, that's the homeschool page where you, you go through and Yeah, yeah. [00:34:08] Sign up to the service. There's a free seven day trial to give it a go and see what your kids think. Yeah.  [00:34:12] Maren: So we have a very special link that you need to use and it'll be in our show notes that you can you can use and it'll give you a huge 50% off an annual subscription, which is awesome. And you still get the seven day trial too. [00:34:25] So Wonderful. It seems like a win, win, win, win for, for everyone. So, Absolutely. Thank you so much, Josh. We really appreciate that you joined us.  [00:34:34] Josh: Well, thank you so much for having me. It was really nice to speak to you and yeah, hopefully speak again soon. Definitely. [00:34:40] Maren: Let's move on to our loving this week. L t Ws. Yes. All right. Angela, do you wanna get  [00:34:49] Angela: started? I would love to. All right, Go for it. I have a book to share. Yeah. Yeah. It's a memoir, which Nice. My favorite genre. Yes. This is called All You Can [00:35:00] Ever Know by Rebecca Chung. Ooh. Rebecca is an adoptee and she is Korean, and she was adopted by a white family. [00:35:09] Mm. And so she tells the story of her childhood in that context, and she grew up in a small town and so she kind of always wonder. About herself and her identity, and she was very curious about her birth family. And so she tells about her curiosity. About that and just how that affected her growing up. [00:35:32] And then as she became ad an adult, she decided to try and find her birth family. And so she tells that story. It is so well written. She's a writer. So it's super well written, super inspiring. I think if you If adoption has affected your family. Mm-hmm. , especially transracial adoption. I think you would probably love to read this book. [00:35:52] But I think even for anybody like Yeah, it does, it has not affected my family, but I really, really learned a lot [00:36:00] and, well, I enjoyed reading this book. It was captivating. I listened on audio. Wow. And I listened in two days. I mean, I blew through it. What? I was just, I wanted to find out what would happen. [00:36:10] Yeah. Like, is she gonna find her birth family? What's gonna happen? Cuz I kind of figured that was coming and so it like, kept me interested the whole way through. So I think I think you should definitely read it if this is like, if this peaks your interest at all, I  [00:36:23] Maren: think you would love it. The fact that you read it in two days or listen to in two days makes me think it was definitely well written, obviously. [00:36:31] Oh yeah. Yeah. And then also the story was just deriving and then the fact, fact that it's just real. This has really happened and it really happened. Yep. Yeah. That's like a magical trio there, so for sure. That's awesome. Yes. Thank you.  [00:36:43] Angela: What are, yeah, what are you loving, Marin?  [00:36:46] Maren: Okay. I'm loving some, I'm loving something that is not brand new to probably anybody, but it's an i glass store online store. [00:36:54] It's a, and it's called Warby Parker. I'm sure you have, have heard of it. And [00:37:00] maybe you all have glasses from Warby Parker already. I don't know, but I kind of I never thought I really wanted to try war Beer Parker. Number one. We've done online glasses before and I'm like, well, if we're gonna do online glasses, we're gonna go, They're really cheap route, which, you know, there's like zny or whatever. [00:37:16] So we've done that before. And or we're just gonna get glasses in our real life eyeglass store so we can actually try things on and get the actual fit that we really need. And, you know, I'm sure they're much higher quality. That's what I always thought. Enter whereby Parker , you know, like it's, it has been a journey finding glasses for my whole family over the years. [00:37:39] Mm-hmm. and we've tried so many things, but whereby Parker just kind of happened upon us. Because they actually have a physical store in our nearby mall Now They do. Yeah. Which was awesome. So we just walked past it one day and we're like, Well, let's try these on. And they're all the frames. I [00:38:00] mean, not kidding you, in the whole store I fell in love with, I couldn't decide which ones I wanted, number one, number. [00:38:07] They're so cheap. I mean, I don't wanna say cheap, like Inex. I didn't, What I'm saying is cheap, Inexpensive. Yeah. They're actually very high quality and they're awesome. And I just couldn't believe it. They're even for us out of network for our insurance. Uh, But because we can get reimbursed some of the way we, you know, I just, we paid and then sent in receipts and got paid back right away from our insurance, which was, which was awesome. [00:38:31] It ended up being cheaper than getting full coverage at another eyeglass store. Any other, like we, I think I looked at three or four other eyeglass stores in the, in the area. And even with like full insurance coverage whereby Parker was so much cheaper. So much cheaper. Wow, that's amazing. And their customer service is unbeatable. [00:38:54] They're so amazing at customer service. Everybody in the store was like, [00:39:00] became our friends right away. . They just loved us and we loved them and I don't know, we just all connected. We all have this vibe. They just have this vibe and it's just great. And they gave us great feedback on what. What we should look for in glasses for our, you know, for our face shape and things like that. [00:39:16] And so it was just fun. It was actually just like a fun experience, which I have not had before with my  [00:39:21] Angela: family and fighting eyeglasses. That's awesome. That is so awesome. Yes. Yeah. So would you, would you only recommend it going into the store or now that you've done it? That's a good question. Do it online. [00:39:34] Maren: Well, and I know that when you do it online, they do send you like, Pairs of glasses that you can actually try on. Yeah. And then, so, which is great. I think that's also a viable option for sure. Yeah, for sure. You can totally do that. And I would say the other thing is that they make the glasses and send them to you so quickly too. [00:39:53] So if you need glasses quickly, they're, they never, I, I think they don't like maybe Guarantee that they'll come really fast, [00:40:00] but ours came really fast. And then also they have like lots of different lenses that often are super expensive when you upgrade lenses. Especially with like the blue blocking material that protects your eyes from the screens and stuff like that. [00:40:13] Like that can be hundreds of dollars other places and it's. Just so affordable, so affordable at where we park. I just can't believe it. Like,  [00:40:21] Angela: I, I can't believe that either. I, Yeah, I feel like I hit the jackpot. I'm just so, so excited. Well, I'm really glad to have a real world what's the word? [00:40:29] Maren: Endorsement. I don't Endorsement.  [00:40:31] Angela: Yes. A real world endorsement because I have of course heard of them on, on pockets, but those are like ads. So you just, you  [00:40:38] Maren: know. This is an A by the way, this is not an ad.  [00:40:41] Angela: I'm just telling you. It's true. I always, I always I've stayed away from Warby Parker because I thought it would be more expensive, so I'm glad to hear it. [00:40:48] It's actually not, it's  [00:40:49] Maren: actually really not. Really not. And Okay. Yeah. Yep. So I'm super excited to even get more now, . That's great.  [00:40:56] Angela: Yeah. That's great. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. All [00:41:00] right, so thank you everybody for listening, and we wanna say a special thank you to our three sponsors, Blossom and Root Out School and Knight Zoo Zookeeper. [00:41:08] Be sure to check out all their links and coupon codes and stuff in our show. Show notes.  [00:41:13] Maren: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Sizer and Maren Goerss. We are listener supported. To get extra content and the Back to School summit free with your membership, go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. [00:41:27] Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive book list. Add homeschool unrefined.com/newsletter. You can find Maren on Instagram at Unrefined Maren and at Always Learning With Maren. Find Angela at unrefined Angela.  [00:41:47] [00:42:00] 

Join us today as we have a conversation with Camille Kirksey, the Intuitive Homeschooler, about what her homeschool life looks like. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors   We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings:   Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase   Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class    Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription  LTWs    Maren: Magnetic Card Wallet Holder   Angela: Dry Erase White Board Sheets   Connect with us!  Visit our website  Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren  Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com   Complete Episode Transcript [00:00:00] Angela:  [00:00:09] Hi, we're Maren and Angela of homeschool unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends. Teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters. Together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling, we're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:30] Maren: At Homeschool Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and BIPOC Voices. [00:00:51] Angela: We are here to encourage and support you. Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether [00:01:00] all your kids are at home or all your kids are in school, or somewhere in between. Wherever you are in your journey, we are the voices in your heads telling you, You're doing great, and so are your kids. [00:01:10] Maren: This episode is 1 94, How We Homeschool with Camille Kirksey. We are going to first share our conversation with Camille, the intuitive homeschooler, and then we'll end like we always do with our lt. Ws loving this week.  [00:01:27] Angela: All right. We wanted to let you guys know before we get started about our newsletter. [00:01:30] We would love to have you sign up for it if you don't already get it. It comes out every week on Fridays. It's packed with everything for the week and a little bit of inspiration for you. If you sign up for it, you get a free gift, which which is our book list. This is our top 100 inclusive book list. [00:01:49] We're so proud of this and so excited for it. So if you don't have it yet, you're gonna wanna. Yes, and  [00:01:54] Maren: it's a PDF with links. Yeah, just click something. It's so great. We are starting something new [00:02:00] this season where we are bringing you three new sponsors for the entire fall season. We were very intentional about who we chose for sponsors. [00:02:10] We pre appreciate you taking the time to learn about them because we think they're really good companies. Also, they're giving discount codes, so you will definitely want to listen for. We're so happy to work hard on this podcast and we appreciate the financial support in making it happen. [00:02:29] You've heard us rave about out school in the past because they're one of our favorite ways to outsource your homeschool. We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. [00:02:49] Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their interests, connect with diverse peers from around the world, and take an active role in leading [00:03:00] their. Out school has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning free. [00:03:18] Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined. And get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with Code  [00:03:27] Angela: UNREFINED. We absolutely love teaching, reading, and writing in ways that are creative and fun, and that's why we are excited to introduce you to Knight Zookeeper. Is your child a reluctant writer? [00:03:41] Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may just be what you're looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused [00:04:00] on developing awesome reading and writing skills, all while having fun at the same. [00:04:05] Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors and the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn together. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in our show notes. [00:04:24] When you register it, you'll get a seven day risk free trial, as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. That's a great deal if you ask. We  [00:04:38] Maren: know how hard it is to find curricula that's a good fit for you and your kids. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:04:52] Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschooling families around the globe since 2016. [00:05:00] Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:05:18] Volume one is available for purchase, and volume two is available on pre-sale. All profits from this history curriculum, a River of Voices will be used to support story. And artists from historically excluded communities. You can find samples, scope, and sequences and information about each of their levels online@blossomandroot.com. [00:05:42] You can also find them at Instagram at Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your.  [00:05:56] Angela: All right. Hi Mar. Hello. [00:06:00] So happy to be here. So happy. Yeah. Today we have Camille Kirksey with us, and if you are, don't already know her, you might know her from her Instagram reels. [00:06:09] Mm-hmm. That's where we found her first. Mm-hmm. . Camille Kirksey strives wholeheartedly to be honest and transparent about the transformative experience homeschooling offers, shifting the narrative of what home education can be. Since beginning to homeschool in 2013, she has helped thousands of homeschool parents by simplifying the how to homeschool learning process, making it easier, quicker, and less intimidating for newcomers through veterans A. [00:06:36] Camille is an author and homeschool mindset coach that recently launched her first masterclass for new homeschool parents Empowered Beginnings under her upcoming online coaching program for Parents Homeschool U Academy. Which launches in 2023. And here's our conversation with Camille. [00:06:57] Welcome Camille. Thanks for being [00:07:00] here.  [00:07:00] Camille: Hi Angela. It's so nice to be here. Finally meeting. I know. Finally in person. kinda  [00:07:05] Angela: in person. Person. Yeah. Yeah. This is fun. Yeah. So yeah, I first discovered you doing reels and if you're not following the intuitive homeschooler and doing on reels on Instagram, you're missing out. [00:07:19] So . So thank you for bringing that joy into my life. First, tell us a little bit about yourself, your job, your family, things  [00:07:28] Camille: like. So I'm Camille. I have three kids, teen all the way to seven. Okay. We've been homeschooling since 2013, so this is year nine for us. Okay. As you said, I do reels. That is my happy place. [00:07:44] I take all the crazy things that go on in my head and and give it to the people, and people seem to like it. Yeah. And that's just about being relatable. One of the things I really like to do is highlight things that I think we're all thinking and do it in a funny [00:08:00] way. So that's something I really enjoy. [00:08:01] What else? So I'm a homeschool mom. I run a business, a digital media Okay. Business. Where we create content. I release a book in 2020 for new homeschoolers called Coming Home, and that has turned into a new master. And next year, 2023, a digital academy for our homeschool parents where we can go and learn some things. [00:08:24] The kids get to have a lot of fun online, but we, we need to do that too, so.  [00:08:28] Angela: Okay. That's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. I have to ask you about your reals because you have a talent for finding audio .  [00:08:38] Camille: Oh. Like, you  [00:08:40] Angela: find a piece of audio that you think wouldn't relate. And then you make it relatable. And I'm wondering like, has this just come to you? [00:08:48] Like, are you just like, Oh, I don't, I know what to do with that ? Yeah.  [00:08:52] Camille: You know, they find me. Okay. It's just, especially on Instagram, I know it's different on TikTok, Instagram, you can't really find a audio [00:09:00] anyway, so you kind, you gotta come across it, but it just happens in my head. If it's funny and I can make it work, then I do. [00:09:08] Angela: That's awesome. That's awesome. And you know what, You're also like not afraid to say the thing that other people might be afraid to say. So I appreciate that.  [00:09:15] Camille: Oh, of course. It's, that's been a gift and a curse my entire life, even as a kid. So, and my mother can attest to that. She's told me many stories of her, like looking like, Is my child about to get in trouble with some other people? [00:09:29] Let me make sure she's okay. Yeah. Cause she speaks her  [00:09:32] Angela: mind. So yeah, it's definitely a gift. It's a gift. Okay, I accept that. Yeah. Yeah. So how did you get started homeschooling and like, what made you decide to do that?  [00:09:43] Camille: So, It was a real kind of random thing. I found myself on Facebook at like two in the morning as, as one does back in the day. [00:09:54] And I saw a black woman from, I think she was from Seattle. [00:10:00] She was from No, Colorado. Denver. Okay. And she had like seven kids and they were homeschooling. And that was the first introduction I ever had. I didn't, I had never heard of it until then. Mm-hmm. , this was 2013. Wow. Okay. And my oldest was four and he was in school like a pre-K, and it was fine. [00:10:19] We didn't have any problems. I didn't, you know, homeschool as a reaction to him being at school. But when I saw her and I saw how she presented herself and I saw this freedom and just, I just was like, I like that, I want that. So I kind of started looking into it, you know, back in 2013, you really can't find like, A breath of information about homeschooling. [00:10:39] It was very basic. Yeah. Lot of YouTube wasn't happening yet. Yeah, definitely not podcast. No. And so yeah, that was kind of my first aha moment. And then a couple things happened at the school and I was like, you know, let's just try it and that, and it kind of just stuck.  [00:10:53] Angela: So you're one of those people who just decided to try it and then it worked and you were. [00:10:59] That's awesome. [00:11:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. And you've just stuck with it for nine years now? Yeah. This  [00:11:04] Camille: is nine September. Yeah. It just, it, it really. Had I known about it growing up, I probably would've had it on my radar. Mm-hmm. . But we just were I guess a typical family. Everybody went to school. My parents went to work. [00:11:18] Yeah. So I didn't even know there was an alternative way of learning. Yeah. Right. Yeah.  [00:11:23] Angela: Right. And so what is your, do you have like a homeschool philosophy or what kind of homeschooler are you?  [00:11:29] Camille: I don't, I mean, I'm kind of just a go with the flow, kind of, I guess. Intuitive . Yeah. Because I just really trust myself and my kids to let. [00:11:39] To, so all of us can just kind of flow together. Mm-hmm. That's kind of how my life has been. I thought I was gonna be a lawyer from when I was little and then I had a law class in high school. I was like, Nah, that ain't, that ain't it. So I just learned like, life is gonna bring me what I need to know. [00:11:55] Yeah. I just gotta trust the process. So yeah. I'm just, that's so interest. [00:12:00] Technically, I guess I would be eclectic cause Yeah, it's just kind of rolling. But yeah, it's just flow. That's just. where I find myself always going to, and when I, when I trust it, it works.  [00:12:11] Angela: Okay. Okay. Yeah. So do you do like curriculum? [00:12:15] Some curriculum? Yes. Curriculum.  [00:12:17] Camille: I, I call it educational resources. Okay. Because curriculum feels too constraining to me. It feels like, you know, it's only one way to look at things and I look at life as the curriculum. Life is the journey. So yeah, I just pull in whatever works. It it. Okay. It doesn't have to look a certain way. [00:12:36] Angela: Okay, great. And do you guys do things like co-ops or,  [00:12:41] Camille: Oh, yeah. Yeah. We actually started in a co-op. We found it, we were one of the founding families in a co-op local to us. Look at you. Okay. When we started, and I was still working at the time, so that was very interesting cause I had Oh wow. Okay. So I had a five year old and a two year old. [00:12:56] No. He was one. Okay. And I was working from [00:13:00] home so I could like work anywhere. So we were at the co-op and it was beautiful. We, we loved it. That really worked for a few years. Okay. But since then we've done homeschool groups. Like my kids are at a homeschool group now, like a drop off homeschool group. [00:13:14] Okay. Yeah. Yeah, we do, we do like homeschool nature class. We, we get out and, and do a lot of homeschool type stuff. Yeah.  [00:13:21] Angela: Yeah. Okay. That's great. So what would you say makes your homeschool unique? And I asked this because in the last episode we did, we talked about making your homeschool unique and how you know, Every child is unique. [00:13:34] Every parent's unique. And so you gotta do what works for you. So what do you think makes you all unique in the way that you homeschool?  [00:13:41] Camille: Well, I think I, I really trust my, myself and I trust my kids and I really try to give them a say in a lot of things, even though we're not unschoolers. Mm-hmm. I really. [00:13:54] I really try to involve them as much as possible. It's kind of difficult cause my kids are kind of really [00:14:00] go with the flow kids. Like they don't have a specific thing, like, I wanna study this. They're kinda like going with whatever I do. But I think you over Yeah. Yeah. They're able to, you know, kind of narrow it down a little bit more. [00:14:13] Yeah. But yeah, I think, I think what I see out there in the homeschool community is a lot of us don't always trust ourselves and our kids. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things. Probably appeals to people about me because I thousand percent trust us to figure this thing out together.  [00:14:29] Angela: That is such, that is so important and such an advantage that you have because you're right. [00:14:33] Like a lot of people and in myself included at the beginning, were like unsure or not self-confident in what you were doing or you know, because you're already like doing something different. You know, you're already like, You know, people probably think you're weird or like, what's, what's that family doing? [00:14:52] Or whatever. So that can be hard to be really confident in yourself and trust you and your kids and that you, you know what you're doing. Yeah. And so [00:15:00] I really think that's an advantage. Is that something that's like kind of just the way you are, it's kind of like in you born in you? Or is that like, come with practice? [00:15:09] Camille: Oh, it's absolutely practice. As far as homeschooling goes me personally, I, I am just a very, I do what I and my mother can say. I, I do what I want. I've been like that for a long time. If it's something that I want to do, I'm gonna do. But when it came to homeschooling, I absolutely didn't start out confident. [00:15:25] I started out very excited and curious, but clueless. Mm-hmm. , completely clueless. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And so I, over, over the years, I've just, I have, you know, one thing about me, I'm not afraid to try things. I don't because I, I never think I fail at anything. I just learn, Okay, well that didn't work or part of it worked, or mm-hmm. [00:15:47] So yeah, it, it took me five years. I always tell people it takes between three and five years to really, really get it, like really live it and understand. Interesting. Mm-hmm. that three are Mark for sure, but for me it was. Because I burned out [00:16:00] and I wanted quit. We were looking for school. Oh, did you? [00:16:02] Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But after that I was like, You know what, we're just gonna sell it in. And I didn't give myself an out. Mm-hmm. , you know, I said, We're gonna go, we're gonna go with this thing. We're not gonna go year by year. We're gonna go with this thing. And yeah. So after a while it just kind of stuck. [00:16:20] Yeah. Cause I'm like, well, I can't, I can't not do it. So  [00:16:24] Angela: we're gonna do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So what did you learn in that time? Like what kinds of things were you maybe thinking or doing at the beginning that you you know, decide, you realized like, this isn't working. I need to fix it and do it a different way? [00:16:40] What changed  [00:16:40] Camille: for. Well, I jumped in like a lot of us do with, you know, buying curricula upfront. Yeah. Not, not understanding like my rhythm, not even knowing about rhythm, you know. Mm-hmm. , I did what schools do, what I went through, you know, most of us go through mm-hmm. And. A lot of that can [00:17:00] be helpful at first for transitioning mm-hmm. [00:17:02] Because it gives you some sense of normalcy, like you are familiar with that. Yeah. But over time, you know, and I know we talk about your, like finding your kids Like their learning styles. And you know, after a long time into that, I was like, That's, that's just not real. That's just, it's just not a thing. [00:17:22] Okay. It's something that feels good, but in real life we don't only have one learning style. We learn things multiplicity of ways. So, yeah. You know, I just jumped into the traditional way of homeschooling and I, I just found that. It didn't feel good. Maybe it checked off the boxes. Mm-hmm. , but it didn't feel right. [00:17:42] And yeah, I tried everything. I tried Waldorf, I tried unschooled, I tried, I went down. I did it all cuz I didn't know what else to do, you know? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so it's probably nothing I haven't done at this point. That just gave me the confidence. Okay, well those didn't work. It has to be something else. [00:17:58] Mm-hmm. . And once I started [00:18:00] listening to myself and learning my kids Cause it's also hard when your kids are little because they, Yeah. You know, they don't really, they can't really direct you in a way. Some kids can, but my kids were very open, so it's kind of left up to me. And that's hard too, cuz I don't know. [00:18:15] Yeah,  [00:18:16] Angela: that is such a good point that. Hadn't thought of until now that when you're, you, some people start when their kids are younger. A lot of people do. Yeah. And then so you think you figured it out or you think you, you've got this or whatever, and then your kids get older and you're like, Oh Now my child is showing me who they are and what they need. [00:18:34] And things need to change a little bit.  [00:18:36] Camille: Absolutely. It's, yeah, it's really difficult to know. I mean, and I think that's why a lot of kids end up going to school when they get older because things change. They need different things. Yeah. And. You know, you just have to try to meet them where they are. But it's hard to do when they're little because they're, you're the leader at that point. [00:18:55] Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's hard to, you know, let them lead unless they're very [00:19:00] strong. Some kids are very, very particular and they know what they want. Yeah. But a lot of them don't. So you kind of left, I dunno.  [00:19:07] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. So what are some of your favorite resources? Do you have like one or two that you love to use? [00:19:15] Camille: Ooh.  [00:19:16] Angela: Doesn't have to be specific. You can be like YouTube  [00:19:18] Camille: or, you know, I'm a workbook person. Like, personally, I really do like workbooks. And I, I've done all types of workbooks, but I, I feel like. My kids like to know what they have to do. Like Yeah. And it's easy to say this is it, you know? Yep. But yeah, probably more workbooks. [00:19:37] They don't really, they don't really gravitate towards anything else. I'm kinda like a workbook. Make sure you read, you know, for however many minutes mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. a person. So kind of just like a mix between like, let's see what's at the library with that and workbooks, but it's not one particular. You know, I don't have a particular resource that I like a go-to. [00:19:59] It's [00:20:00] just like, this works right now, kind of  [00:20:02] Angela: thing. That's just it. That's how it has been for me too, a little bit. It's just like you find a thing, it works for a few months and then you gotta find another thing. . Mm-hmm. . There's very few things that work the whole way through. Because people change, kids change and needs change and you get bored or mm-hmm. [00:20:19] you know, you need a variety or whatever. So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. So what does a typical day or week look like for you?  [00:20:28] Camille: You know, honestly it's pretty boring because it's so monotonous. . I think my kids are bored a lot because we do the same thing. They just know, you know? Okay. But it's the standard, you know, we start school probably around 10, 11 ish, cuz my kids will be older. [00:20:44] They wanna sleep in.  [00:20:45] Angela: Yeah. And so you let 'em sleep in? Oh, absolutely. My  [00:20:48] Camille: oldest. Sometimes he's not up till like two in afternoon. I'm like, Oh, I forgot you were here because I haven't even seen you today, . That's many a days. Okay. But yeah, so we'll get up, get dressed, [00:21:00] you know, typical stuff, and then we'll do school. [00:21:03] School takes about a couple hours. Okay. Right now we're doing th three days a week cuz they have homeschool group and we have other stuff going on. Mm. Yeah. Okay. And yeah. And then in the afternoons, I'm normally doing my work stuff or just vegging out watching something reels. I watch a ton of reels, [00:21:20] I guess that's my research. . Well, yeah, for  [00:21:23] Angela: sure. It's for  [00:21:23] Camille: research. Yeah. Yeah. . And so our weeks are pretty, they're, they're pretty, like I said, they're monotonous. They're the same thing. We may meet up with friends, you know? Mm-hmm. , if we can do that. Or a field trip or you know, the, Definitely the library. [00:21:38] Yeah. But we're, we're just really go with the flow. Like whatever, I try to have, you know, pay attention to the schedule, but I, I'm not a slave to the schedule. I'm kind of like, we'll go with the flow kind of thing.  [00:21:50] Angela: That's nice. That's nice. So what do you, what for you is the best part of homeschooling? Like, why have you stuck with. [00:21:58] Camille: You know, I [00:22:00] really, when I used to work outside the home, I always wanted to be with my kids. Like, I just love the idea of being like going to the zoo and, you know, Yeah. Going and just hanging out. So I really do enjoy being with my kids. Mm-hmm. . But I also love that it's a second chance for me to really learn. [00:22:17] So much, so, so much. And to see things through their eyes because, and this is one of the things that I think a lot of homeschoolers have a problem with. We, our kids are different. Than us. Mm-hmm. , a lot of us, most of us grew up in the 19 hundreds. Let's just be clear and as long, as long as we, you know, continue to look at things from like the 20th century, we're gonna miss a lot of opportunities for our kids. [00:22:46] They are growing up in a different time. They have access to so much we didn't. Mm-hmm. , they have autonomy the way we didn't, you know, we. You know, parenting techniques that really give them this [00:23:00] voice. Mm-hmm. that a lot of us didn't have. So I really appreciate being, being in this modern time where, you know, maybe society wise, children aren't always seen as whole people, but there's this. [00:23:12] Movement of parents. Yeah. Especially with homeschooling. They're like, No, my kids mental wellbeing is important. Mm-hmm. , you know, how they, what they think about and how they express themselves is important. So I love being part of this movement of homeschooling that is very recent. Yeah. More modern. It's really honor. [00:23:31] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's probably my  [00:23:34] Angela: favorite part. Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. That resonates with me so much. I agree with you. I think there is a movement to, you know, a lot of people look back with nostalgia, but especially among homeschoolers, that can be the case. But I agree that there's so much. [00:23:51] There's so many positive things about the time that we're living in. Mm-hmm. . I know there's a lot of scary things too, but, you know a lot of it is positive and if we embrace it [00:24:00] and realize, like you said, our kids are growing up in a totally different world. This is amazing for them. It really is. [00:24:05] It's amazing. And you're right, it's a second chance for us. Like yeah. We are now getting to experience a lot of these things that they are too. It's. It's invaluable, so I really appreciate that. Yeah. What is what's one of the hardest parts for you about homeschooling, if anything?  [00:24:25] Camille: Hmm. What's hard about it? [00:24:27] I guess just personally, because I guess I'm like a public figure or whatever. Just seeing people struggle with the things that I don't, I just know they don't have to struggle with, but they don't know it yet. Yeah. And I think that's probably the most difficult, like seeing how the community is changing, but it's, it's not always. [00:24:49] Inclusive and, and is diverse and mm-hmm. and supportive as I want it to be. And so obviously that's what I try to do. Yeah. Is provide that. But I think that's the [00:25:00] hardest seeing people, you know, In, in spaces where they're, they feel defeated or they can't do it. And I'm just like, Come here. Like no [00:25:09] Angela: Yeah. It doesn't have to be that hard. It doesn't have to be that hard. Yeah. Yeah. And it is really hard to know that when you're first starting out, or you're right. If you're in a space or you know, I think a lot of times you're looking around and wanting to do things the way other people do it because you don't know. [00:25:25] Right. And so that can be hard to know. Like there is a different way and it can be easier, it can be more relaxed.  [00:25:31] Camille: Right. Absolutely. Yeah.  [00:25:32] Angela: Yeah. So it sounds like where you live, I don't know, you didn't say where you live, but it sounds like where you live, you have a good comu, a homeschool community that you feel You know, is, is good for your family and that's amazing. [00:25:46] Camille: Yeah. Yeah. We do, We have access to, I mean, it's way more homeschoolers than I thought. Like when we, we first were part of the co-op. We're not with them now, but it was, it was so many families from so many different spaces and that was, I [00:26:00] was very surprised. I just didn't realize how many. Like within five minutes of me. [00:26:04] It was ridiculous. Wow. But yeah, we're kind of like adjacent to the homeschool, homeschool community. I haven't really found like a group of people. I have hand, like a, maybe a couple people. Yeah. . But online is like amazing . Yeah. But yeah, in person, it's kind of like we haven't, we've never been able to find our, our people like a group. [00:26:28] It's here and there, but not consistent. Yeah.  [00:26:30] Angela: Like you kind of have your fingers in different places, but it's, you don't feel like, And I think that's okay too. I just, I want people to know like, there isn't always gonna be a perfect community for your family. Right. There probably isn't. Right. You know, if you have that count yourself. [00:26:46] Lucky because Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. But more like, for me at least, it was cobbling together a lot of just different things and some, some non homeschool things too, like after school or evening [00:27:00] type activities too, was where we met like kids who went to traditional school. [00:27:04] Yeah. Yeah, too.  [00:27:06] Camille: So it was more, I think it's more common than not though. I mean, that's the thing, Yeah. With mm-hmm. , there's so many reasons why it's kind of disjointed that way, but mm-hmm. , I think that's more common than having like this. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. Especially like for me, you know, we're a secular family and we don't have like a set, like a church group or, you know. [00:27:27] Yeah. That's way. But I think that's less common that in the homeschool community to really have that set group that you could just come into and you feel comfortable, you feel belong, like you belong. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, Cause I can get along with a lot of folks, but I don't, I have yet to find somewhere I feel like I belong in person. [00:27:47] Mm-hmm. . And that's just, that's really, that's a struggle. But you know, like you said, it just, it is what it is and that's,  [00:27:53] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's definitely a A way the homeschool community could grow, you know? Mm-hmm. is being [00:28:00] more inclusive and we talk about that a lot, but it is hard to be, to feel like you don't fit for whatever reason. [00:28:06] Yeah. And, or feel like you're excluded for whatever reason in a group, or just to see, at least for me, it was hard to see like a lot of other groups getting together and then feeling like you don't really belong with that group. Then you're like, I feel like you miss out. You know? Right. Especi for something with  [00:28:23] Camille: kids, you know, that's, It's okay if. [00:28:27] I'm the one that doesn't feel like a fit. I'm okay with that. But for the kids it is, it is difficult to see that because Yeah, like if you don't have, like, we don't have kids in the neighborhood and we don't, you know, so it is like, it's very intentional that I have to get out there and do it. Yep. Yep. Yeah. [00:28:43] It, it can be challenging for sure.  [00:28:45] Angela: Can be challenging. Yep. So just for fun, because I'm curious, and I always, we talk about this a lot too. What kinds of things are you into right now? Like maybe you're reading, maybe you're watching something, maybe it's music you're listening [00:29:00] to. I'm just curious if you wanna share anything fun that you're into. [00:29:04] Camille: I mean, reals, that's probably like the most fun I have in a day. Yeah. And just, you know, engaging with people online. Yep. I am doing a cohort right now with moms, new homeschool moms, and it's every week and. I love doing that. Like I, I just love getting to know people and helping them be their best sales. [00:29:25] Yeah. So that's kind of how I spend my days for the most part. And all of it's fun to me, like Yeah. All of  [00:29:31] Angela: it. . Yeah. You know, I love how you're normalizing that because I think people can feel, especially your homeschool parents or just parents in general, can feel guilty. Hmm. About the time that they're spending online, or especially like watching reels or  [00:29:46] Camille: whatever. [00:29:47] Oh, no. don't do that. , that's like, I, I just, I've always, I remember being a little kid, like, I'm not gonna be these like, stuffy adults that don't laugh and, you know, are silly. Like, that's my. [00:30:00] State of mind. I, I, I find funny things and just probably the craziest places and mm-hmm. . Yeah. Like, yeah, I don't want, I don't want, don't do that like do. [00:30:09] So, and, and I think a lot of people, a lot of women moms, Yeah. Feel like, you know, self care has to be this. Like bubble bath or spot. Yeah. No, my laughing at these reels are, is laughing. That does that for me. That's laughing.  [00:30:23] Angela: Yes. Are you on TikTok too?  [00:30:26] Camille: Are you having I am not. No. I couldn't do both. Really? [00:30:30] Angela: That's, Yeah. It'd be easy. You just like put it over there too. You just like, No, actually it's not that easy. It's cuz we're, we're doing both too. Okay. And I you. Yeah, it's not as easy to, to do both. Like you can't just copy paste. If you could, that would be, Yeah.  [00:30:46] Camille: Yeah. I, I tried that a little bit cause my, one of my friends was like, You have to get on TikTok. [00:30:50] Even my cousin, you have to get on TikTok. And I was like, No, , okay. I tried it, but it's like, I feel better, I feel more at home on Instagram. [00:31:00] Yeah.  [00:31:00] Angela: Right. Yeah. I get. Yeah. Okay. So I am curious too, something that we always talk about is, are things that we don't do. So like a lot of other people do things that we sometimes think we should do. [00:31:16] Hmm. But you know, like for example, like I don't when my kids were little, I didn't do their laundry. They did their laundry or you know, I don't garden , , you know, I love other people gardening or like, you know, I think that's amazing. If that's your hobby and you like doing that, I'm not gonna do that. [00:31:34] Yeah. So just embracing the things that you don't do mm-hmm. then you're making room for the things that you really enjoy doing. So what are. Something that you  [00:31:42] Camille: don't do? I mean, it's a lot. I don't do . I, I, I've, I've always, I've never been afraid to say no. That was probably my default for a long time. [00:31:50] Yeah. Because I don't. I'm an introvert. Like it doesn't come out like that, but I really, I really am. I really? Yeah, I believe you. Yeah. . So [00:32:00] I say no to most things. Yeah. But like you said, it is because I, I wanna, you know, really. Pay attention to the things that really matter to me in my kids. Mm-hmm. [00:32:11] Mm-hmm. . So, I don't know, like, I can, I think I say no to so much. I, I don't do drama. Like I, you know, even though I post some things that can be controversial sometimes. Oh yeah. That's very intentional. I'm a conversation starter. I want to do that. But most of the time I'm, I'm just kind of to myself, so I guess. [00:32:30] I normally, I can't even think of any particular thing I don't do, cuz there's so much I don't do. Yeah. I'm a minimalist too. Like, I keep things so simple. Yeah. Like I will say for homeschooling, I don't have a bunch of stuff. I don't, I don't find joy in keeping curricula that doesn't work or you know, just because I pay for something, I'm going to try to, I would give stuff away before I sell it. [00:32:52] Yeah. So I guess it's something I absolutely don't do. I don't hoard things just in case even I know you mentioned like earlier where [00:33:00] you know the curriculum is boring and you kind of move on and Yeah. I'm like, I don't put it on the shelf. Most times I kind of give it away because I don't You get  [00:33:08] Angela: rid of it  [00:33:08] Camille: right away. [00:33:09] Yeah, because I'm like, I'm not gonna save it. And some, some stuff. Very little. Very little. Yeah. But yeah, I kind of keep stuff real streamlined and, and moving.  [00:33:20] Angela: That's just, You're not attached  [00:33:22] Camille: to I am not attached, no. Yeah. I'm not attached to a lot of things. I'm not, I'm not even attached to the outcome of this homeschool journey. [00:33:31] Oh, I'm not attached to that. Say more about that. Yeah. I, I don't, I don't, and that's one of the things I went through a period of time where I was just binging so many, like, I guess self-improvement type books and just this really, I, I just, that's where I think my intuition really, really solidified for me, where I was. [00:33:50] I cannot be attached to the outcome of what happens. All I can do is do my best today. Mm-hmm. and whatever happens going forward is outta my [00:34:00] control. Mm-hmm. . So when it comes to homeschooling, I'm like, I'm gonna show up as much as possible and support my kids as much as I can. But what would they do with that that's on them, You know, just as adults, they, I can only. [00:34:14] Give them the best of me and they have to take whatever they can and, and go forward. I mean, that's for me, that's, that's how I don't get attached to like where they should be, what they should be doing today. Here we are. Oh, that's, you,  [00:34:30] Angela: like healthy. That's just so healthy advice and I think most people are not there. [00:34:36] I, and most people put a lot of pressure on themselves to do it right. Because their kids' future depends on it or whatever. But you know, if your kids were in school, it would be the same. It would be like, yeah, I mean, you know, this is what we're doing, but you know, I don't know what the outcomes will be. [00:34:55] It's what you make of it, or it's, it's just what's gonna happen. This [00:35:00] is the best thing we're doing right now. I'm, I'm giving you, I'm given. I'm given a good try. Yep. And . That's it. . That's all I can do. Yeah,  [00:35:11] Camille: that's I can. I know what, I don't create a separation between myself and my kids. Like, Okay, adults do it this way and kids do it this way because I don't know what I'm doing on a daily basis. [00:35:21] This. Mm-hmm. like this podcast, we can only plan so much. Yeah. We're gonna, whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. Yeah. So adults, as adults, we practice this all the time. This jumping into situations, new jobs, relationships, all types of stuff. Mm-hmm. . So I don't know why that would be any different for the kids. [00:35:37] We don't know what's gonna happen with us. As much as we planned. I went to college, I, I'm not doing any of the stuff that I thought I was gonna be doing, you know, like you have. But that's the fun of it. Like that's where the, we talk about lifelong learning and being curious for our kids, but at some point it kind of doesn't apply to us. [00:35:55] Mm-hmm. . Yeah, it applies to us. So that's kind of what I like to do. I like to [00:36:00] not know what's coming. I'm okay with that cuz I'm. I've been okay in the past. I'll be okay in the future. It's, it's all good. It's hard to,  [00:36:08] Angela: It's such a great, it's such a great attitude. It's such a great attitude. It's like it's ideal for homeschooling too, you know, to, to just Now, put that pressure on yourself. [00:36:18] What what happens will happen. Yeah. We love learning. We're just gonna keep, keep trying, keep experiencing things and yeah, this is life.  [00:36:27] Camille: Yep. Life is the curricula. You just keep moving and that's amazing.  [00:36:31] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. Of course. I'm so glad that we got to talk finally, and I wanted our audience to hear from you, and so will you tell our listeners where they can find you and what kinds of things you really want them to know about that you're doing? [00:36:51] Camille: Okay. So as for mentioned Instagram, I'm on there, the intuitive homeschooler. Mm-hmm. . My blog website is the intuitive [00:37:00] homeschooler.com. Okay. So all my places are on there. Yeah. I also have the new academy that is, we're kind of soft starting. Yeah. And that is homeschool. Academy, and that's just homeschool u.academy. [00:37:16] And so like the letter you or wireless? Yes. The letter You,  [00:37:18] Angela: I'm sorry. Thank homeschool u.academy Academy.  [00:37:21] Camille: Okay. Yes. And so that's coming out early 2023. It's gonna be, it's really an online coaching type of, Thing, but it's, it's gonna be interesting. Yeah. So yeah, they can just follow me, their Instagram for sure. [00:37:35] All my  [00:37:35] Angela: fun reels, . Yep. Gotta check those out. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, we loved having you. Thank you for being  [00:37:42] Camille: here. Thank you so much for having me. Byebye. [00:37:47]  [00:37:47] Maren: Let's move on to our loving this week. Love Lt. Ws. Angela, do you wanna get  [00:37:54] Angela: started? [00:37:55] What are you Loving this week? Sure, sure. So I'm loving something that. I, [00:38:00] somebody in our Instagram comments mentioned and I got it and now I'm wondering if you have already mentioned it to me, . So you'll have to tell me. Okay. You'll have to tell me. Okay. But I did a real, where I talked about our whiteboard as being like one of our favorite things in our house. [00:38:17] Right. And the thing that I put all of our, like, it just basically organizes our family and it sits in our living room like a big piece of artwork. Right. Yeah, exactly. Takes a place of an artwork. Piece of artwork, , and that's okay. Right? And then somebody in the comments, maybe one of you listening, said do you have the, like stickers for your fridge, [00:38:39] And I didn't. And then I looked them up. Oh, yes.  [00:38:43] Maren: You have those, The sticker whiteboards like, Yeah.  [00:38:46] Angela: Yeah. Except it's a big piece. It's not like a post. I don't have a big one. You don't have a big one. Okay, so I got these from Amazon. It is called Mc Squares. .  [00:38:59] Maren: Love  [00:38:59] Angela: it. [00:39:00] 11 i. They're 11 by 11. Okay. And they are not stickers actually. [00:39:05] So they clinging to your stainless steel appliances. It just cl. That's so nice. Yeah, so you can like remove it. It's not, doesn't not have a sticky back. I don't know how it clings. It's magic. It's science. Yeah. Doesn't matter  [00:39:18] Maren: if, if it works, just go with  [00:39:20] Angela: it. Right? So I got two cuz we have a fridge that's like, you know side by side or whatever. [00:39:26] So there's two sides, right? Mm-hmm. . So I got two, one for one for each side. 11 by 11 is perfect size. It takes up almost the whole space. Yeah. And one says like for is for everybody to write, like whatever grocer. They want me to get great. And then the other for what we're having for dinner. Oh, I love that. [00:39:45] Yeah, it's a great idea. Mm-hmm. and everybody's using it. They're all using it to write their, their requested items. And I love it so much. I,  [00:39:53] Maren: That is so nice because what happened before, What happened before you had the list , you know, somebody's like, Mom, can [00:40:00] you add this to the list? And you'd be like, you'd be like, I'm  [00:40:02] Angela: getting groceries. [00:40:03] I'd text everybody. I'm getting groceries. Does anybody want anything? And maybe one person would text me. Back a long list. Right. . Right. And the other people would be like, Oh no, I missed it. Did you already order? And so this is like, this is just always there. That's so great. A dry erase marker, always there. [00:40:22] And they can just use it. So  [00:40:24] Maren: Yeah. And that's when it's on their mind when they're at the fridge. Right. .  [00:40:29] Angela: And it's like, well, I always kind of like, I wanted. Dry erase for our fridge, but because we have stainless steel, you can't get like a magnet. Right. You can't get a magnet one. Exactly. Yeah. So it was just like, oh, our fridge is plain. [00:40:43] Which is fine, you know, it looks nice and clean. But this was, Oh, cuz the fridge is just like, it's like in the main, it's the main attraction in the kitchen. Right? Right. Definitely. So it take, this is. Prime real estate is what I'm saying. Yeah, it is. It totally is.  [00:40:58] Maren: Prime. That's awesome. Yeah, so I love it. [00:40:59] [00:41:00] Oh, I love this idea. What I had was I do have magnetic white, little square, white boards basically, and they go on the side of our fridge. Oh yes, we have this like three inch space on the side of a fridge. Remember? You know, Yeah. Our fridge goes into this, you know? Yeah. It's a built in, right? And so we have like three inches, and so I got these three inch squares, and at each square I put, you know, I have one for every day of the week, and so I just write down what we're gonna have each day  [00:41:28] Angela: for, for dinners. [00:41:30] Maren: Okay. Yeah. Which I love too. I love  [00:41:33] Angela: it. Now I remember you telling me about that. Yes. And I remember looking at it and I don't have three inches , like ours is also built in. Yes. There's nothing sticking out. There's nothing out. Yeah. ,  [00:41:44] Maren: so, So yeah. Nothing I know. So this is great for you. I love that. I'm really happy  [00:41:48] Angela: to, I'll put a link in the show notes there from Amazon, of course. [00:41:50] So, mm-hmm. . Yeah. All right. What are you loving this week, Maren? Okay. I am loving a  [00:41:54] Maren: new phone wallet. Oh, and yeah, I'm loving it because [00:42:00] it's magnetic it. And I know this is probably not earth shattering to anyone. You've probably had phones. It  [00:42:05] Angela: actually is to me .  [00:42:06] Maren: Yeah. Well I think many people have had phones that have the magnetic phone and phone case thing. [00:42:13] The MagSafe for a long time. I just got one of these, a phone case that is mag safe and it's so nice because then I. You know, Ally Hook my wallet right to the back and I love it. I love it. It looks stylish. It's called The Hive. It's fr, I think it's called Hive. Yes. Hive. Anyway, that's the brand name. Okay. [00:42:36] And I'll, I'll, I'll definitely. Give a link to this too. But I love it because number one, it fits, it says it fits six cards. Okay. There so many of these wallet cases fit  [00:42:49] Angela: one or two or,  [00:42:50] Maren: Okay. Yeah. Or I stretch it so much. Yeah. But it doesn't work anymore after, you know, So this one says six. I don't, I've never used six. [00:42:58] I usually, I like a good four. [00:43:00] Card, wallet. Mm-hmm. . And so this one fits my cards perfectly. It's just, it fits, feels really good. And then also I just, I mean, I am a person, I know, I've known this about myself for years. I need a wallet. On  [00:43:13] Angela: my phone, .  [00:43:14] Maren: Otherwise I forget my wallet. It is just the way it is. So I've been like hooked to these wallet cases for years. [00:43:22] Mm-hmm. , I need that. I know that, but I also just absolutely love the chance to take it off every once in a while and just have a phone that doesn't have a wallet on it, even just for a short amount of time. It's nice. I really like it.  [00:43:35] Angela: I appreciate. Yes, I saw you using this and yeah, I might have to copy you again. [00:43:40] I copied you on the phone wallet thing, which I have been using for years. Right, Which has been so handy. It's so nice, but the only problem with it that I have is that I can't charge it on a, On a wireless charger. Wireless charger.  [00:43:55] Maren: Yep. Yep. It's true. Yeah. And so that's another  [00:43:58] Angela: benefit. That's fine. [00:44:00] It's fine that I don't, I'm not able to do that. [00:44:02] But when I saw your wallet, removable wallet, yeah, I kind of liked that. Now, can you like put your phone in your back pocket without snagging or It can, Yes. Okay.  [00:44:12] Maren: Yep, it works great. Okay. Yes. The material is just perfect for fitting in. Yeah, so I just, I really love it. And also the, you know, the magnet is so strong, so I never worried that it's gonna fall off. [00:44:25] That was my concern always. Yeah.  [00:44:27] Angela: That the, I would  [00:44:28] Maren: just, my wallet would just fall, but this thing is  [00:44:31] Angela: really strong. That's nice. Yeah, because I think technology just keeps getting better. Obviously because I think when I considered this option mm-hmm. A few years ago they were like sticker wallets. .  [00:44:44] Maren: Yes,  [00:44:44] Angela: yes. [00:44:45] There wasn't a magnet. And then I, so I'm just, I haven't really looked, but now that I know, I think, Cause I'm not a purse person either, I'm, I'm not gonna carry a purse.  [00:44:55] Maren: You just have to be careful and get, You do need a phone case that is [00:45:00] makes safe. It says make safe phone case. Oh really? Yeah. That allows the magnet magnetism to work [00:45:09] So yes, you do need that. Okay. But a lot, There's a lot of them. Lots of choices. There's so  [00:45:14] Angela: many. Okay. Okay.  [00:45:16] Maren: I love it. Yeah. [00:45:17] Angela: A big thank you to our three sponsors out School Night, Zookeeper, and Blossom and Root. Be sure. Be sure to check out their links in our show notes.  [00:45:27] Maren: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela C and Marron Gorse. We are listener supported. To get extra content and the Back to School summit for free with your membership, go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. [00:45:43] You can subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive book list@homeschoolunrefined.com slash newsletter. You can find Maron on Instagram at unrefined maron and at Always [00:46:00] Learning With Mar, and you can find Angela at unrefined. Angela.

Maren & Angela are checking in with each other on what's going well, what's hard right now and how their self-care is going. You can listen to the entire episode at patreon.com/homeschoolunrefined