We talk with Arnie Niekamp about metanarrative, stories about stories, and how fiction intersects with the reality of our own lives.

Guest plugs: Hello From the Magic Tavern, Jackbox Games

Follow the show on Twitter: @treasurescast

Your hosts are Anne Kirn (@house_of_darkly) and Emily Kardamis (@corruptedgem).

Intro, outro, and interstitial music is "Welcome!" by RoccoW, used under Creative Commons.

Additional sound effects from Freesound.org, used under Creative Commons.