What does leadership look like when the church is shrinking? In this episode, Martha Tatarnic talks with Rev. Dr. Bill Harrison, president of Lutheran Theological Seminary in Saskatoon and author of Leadership in a Shrinking Church. Harrison shares candid insights from his own journey—from growing up in a fundamentalist tradition to leading in ecumenical and academic contexts. He reflects on why complexity is not something to fear, why “do less with less” might be the most faithful strategy today, and how congregations can reclaim a gospel vision rooted in transformation rather than numbers.  Realistic and hopeful, this episode offers practical tools for pastors, leaders, and congregations navigating decline as Harrison reminds that God’s transformation is complex, but the good news is alive and present—even in a shrinking church.In this conversation you’ll hear:Why numerical growth has become an idol in many churchesThe crushing accumulation of roles and expectations placed on clergyFour dimensions of transformation—intellectual, psychic, moral, and religious—that shape Christian lifeWhy congregations need to clarify identity, mission, and resources instead of trying to be “all things to all people”How gospel vision statements can help churches focus on what really mattersThe Rev. Dr. William (Bill) Harrison is president of Lutheran Theological Seminary, Saskatoon, and former chair of the Saskatoon Theological Union Common Faculty. Bill teaches systematic and historical theology, and ethics. In addition to his PhD in systematic theology and church history from Boston College, Bill has degrees in English literature (M.A.), theology (B.Th.), and political science (B.A. Hons). Bill is the author of Leadership in a Shrinking Church: Finding New Vision in Unlikely Places; Frequently Asked Questions in Christian Theology; and In Praise of Mixed Religions: The Syncretism Solution in a Multifaith World. Everywhere he goes, Bill takes music with him, listening to a broad variety. At home, he spends as much time as possible walking trails or out in his kayak.Mentioned Resources:📖 Get his Book: Leadership in a Shrinking Church📱 Follow: https://www.facebook.com/bill.harrison.359128🌐 Website: www.lutherantheological.ca 🌐 Website: https://www.facebook.com/LTSSaskatoon/🎧 Episodes Referenced: Robert Schuller episode Presenting Sponsor:Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.  Supporting Sponsors:Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.  Future Christian Team:Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive ProducerMartha Tatarnic – Co-HostPaul Romig–Leavitt – Associate ProducerDennis Sanders – ProducerAlexander Lang - Production Assistant