My conversation with Jennifer Good, a non-drinking, carceral abolitionist and psychotherapist, took a beautifully meandering journey from discussing addiction stereotypes to what to do about the societal and personal harm that results. We muse about what the state of sobriety means, and how some definitions slip into purity culture. 
Since the conversation behaved a bit like poetry, I've also included the poem Jennifer mentioned by the poet Rumi as an epilogue to the episode.

The Booze Substitute - Is it really all that?: a conversation with Ian Harvey

There is a clear and present danger to getting sober! Let’s challenge how we talk about sobriety, like what if drinking responsibly isn’t a real thing, and what if there is no rock bottom, but instead a series of waking up? Waking up to why we were numbing out. Waking up to the impact of capitalism, colonialism, and the patriarchy (yes, they’re all connected). Waking up to understanding personal growth isn’t a destination. Waking up to how we might show up. Good morning! The world needs people who are clear and present. Especially now and especially you.