Joe and Toni talk to Ben Mankiewicz, an expert on Liz Taylor and Cleopatra—who are both quintessential showgirls Swift is obsessed with. In the episode’s middle segment, the three discuss the many parallels between the two Taylors that Swift alludes to in the song. Ben is an amazing storyteller and host of the podcast The Plot Thickens whose latest season is on the ill-fated movie Cleopatra, which starred Liz and which his great-uncle Joseph directed and wrote. If you want to fully understand the meaning of this great song, don’t miss this episode. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://megaphone.fm/adchoices">megaphone.fm/adchoices</a>

Opalite’s real meaning reveals a hard truth about Taylor Swift's songs

This podcast will change your life. Imagine learning the secrets of how to make the words you write and speak more persuasive, memorable, and viral. Well, Taylor Swift has mastered these viral storytelling tools. This podcast decodes her songs to reveal not just their true meaning but also the tricks she uses that have made her the most viral pop star of this century.

Fans listened to Decoding Taylor Swift "longer than 97% of other shows," and "we received more shares than 97% of other shows," according to our 2025 Spotify Wrapped.

So, tune in and see why they're listening and sharing. Decoding Taylor Swift will make you a better communicator and help your content reach millions, so you can drive your mission and build your tribe.

Rolling Stone magazine put both Taylor and Joe on its list of “The 100 People Who Are Reinventing America.” On this podcast, Joe Romm and his daughter Toni will give you the tools to lead, connect, and change the world.

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