Power of Ten is a podcast hosted by Andy Polaine about design operating at many levels, zooming out from thoughtful detail through to organisational transformation and on to changes in society and the world.

My guest in this episode is Dr Pierce Otlhogile-Gordon, known as Doctor OG, an innovation catalyst, researcher, facilitator, and evaluator, based in Botswana. Pierce is impassioned by the space between transformation and liberation, and researches the complexity, evaluation, and emergence of design and innovation across the world.

Here we explore what that space between transformation and liberation actually is, the issues of power dynamics of politics in design, and why Human-Centred Design (HCD) can often exacerbate problems as opposed to being their solution.